37-38 Buick trans with early olds gears etc

This is the trans we were talking about on the other thread, right?

 

Well, taken together, the info in these two threads posts makes me think that, theoretically at least, you should be able to swap the olds cluster into the Buick case, leave the tail-shaft/tailshaft housing off, and mate it up with the torque-tube. If you can install the olds tailshaft housing on the end of the Buick cluster, and that fits, and you can mate the end of the buick case with no tailshaft up with the ford torque-tube, then hopefully, it should be workable.

And yes, thats what I am thinking/hoping/wondering about. Buick case, Olds gears, no tailshaft, mate it to a torque-tube. Would be REALLY slick, and well worth it if it would work, even if there was some machining involved...

 

Norm, have you seen these two threads?

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334783

The thread above really starts to relate to this around post #28.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=724378

 

George, you are losing me... The tailshaft is actually a mainshaft. It has a longer end on the open version. So I guess it could be shortened resplined for Ford closed.

but it might not be needed. I have read a bit too much lately and need to go back through what I did read I amost think one person said that the one of the Buick mainshafts would work with the Ford closed? I can't recall how he said it, but I don't recall machining.

I'll try to measure that 37 Buick mainshaft spline and get a pic. I have no idea if 40s or even the last Buick shaft from the 50s is splined the same as 37 or not.


lost history

 

The '37 Roadmaster box I removed from a '40 Coupe (behind a '52 Cad engine, Cad/Olds bellhousing) was converted to use a '37-'48 Ford U joint, I could see where the shaft had been turned down, resplined w/6 wide splines, then tapped 3/8" SAE to tighten the U-joint up to the rear bearing. (rear bearing used was '39-'48 Ford FRONT brg., just like the open drive conversion to F-1 rear)
But this was enclosed Ford, including the '40 rear mount: (there were shortened bolts used as plugs in the Buick case, with black permatex; then 6 new holes were drilled and tapped 3/8" USS. Mount was machined larger for the larger 'front' (now rear) bearing and retaining snap ring.
All in all, it was the same modification as I've done on LaSalles since 1956. (the older guys did 'em before that!)

One thing of note here...Just like LaSalles, total ****** length with the Ford mod will position the rear mounting ears 1-1/4" farther back, as the case is longer.
More than a few guys got surprised with this when their Cad, Olds, and Buick fan was 1/2" behind that '40 radiator! Engine forward, or cross member mount back. Big choice...then.

 

My old 57 Pontiac came with a worn out, sick-**** 347-2 barrel 8 to 1 motor and the original select-a-shift 3 speed. Over a year and a half I grew to hate that damned transmission. It was slow shifting, weak, noisy and I eventually blew 4 of them before I switched to a 58-60 bellhousing and a muncie 4 speed. INstalled a '59, 389 engine and the changes, especially the transmission swap made a completely different car out if it. Good luck with these old transmissions. You'll need it.
Signed...I hate select shift ******s.

 

Ok, so this is what I was trying to say (clear as mud), that you could put the olds cluster in the Buick case, leave the tailshaft housing off, shorten and re-spline (6 spline, right? whats the diameter?) the end of the olds shaft to mate with the ford "u-joint" at the front of the torque-tube, drill and tap 4 holes in the back of the Buick case to mate with this piece,
plug the leftover holes in the back of the buick case, and bobs yer uncle. Except, according to Mike, you also have to move the trans mounting holes back 1 1/4". Is that about right? Nothin' to it!!

 

George; here are some pics of 37 shaft, Olds selector shaft and 37 rear bearing retainer/closed drive housing. Oh, and you keep talking about using the Olds "cluster" for a closed drive; the only reason to use Olds guts rather than the later Buick guts IMO, is to get the longer input shaft for Cad or Olds motors. The Flathead Ford needs a short Buick input, and you'd have to look at the 1956 HOT ROD article to see what input they used for the 55 Chevy SBC drag car.

But before that, I don't know if I mentioned this yet, but all the Olds and the couple of years of Pontiac Selectors around '57 were all really Buick transmissions. The Olds & Pontiac divisions went through the Buick division for these, but with some minor mods to suit. Sort of the same thing when Olds bought the 50 trans from the Cadillac division with it's mods.

I was just reading what Mike just said about machining the Olds shaft "down" for the Ford respline. I measured that 37 spline OD at 1.178. I don't have a Ford trans to compare OD, but I do have a 35/36 Ford NOS driveshaft that measures 1.090 at it's "6 spline end". So maybe that is the same spline as what the Ford trans has. The 37 buick is also 6 spline.

I don't know anything about the 40s and 50s Buick Selectors. The old 1956 HOT ROD article mentions using the 40-48 Buick gears, so I don't know what is different about the 49 to 60. 1960 was the last Buick Selector, but Olds ran it until 64...and a hamber who worked at Olds R&D said that when Buick stopped selling sticks in 60, they sold 3500 leftover transmissions to the Olds division. So who knows about all the Buick changes from 37 to 60; there must have been a lot.

Back to what I said on page one; you are better off using all the internals from one donor Olds trans for a 37 rebuild for an open drive application.. I recently found out that Olds used a longer tail housing and mainshaft(output shaft) on the bigger 98 models starting in 52. So, building one from a random pile of different Olds transmission pieces, will need some measuring.


..and last pic is the Olds Selector "37 Roadmaster clone". It uses a welded and plugged Olds case, with 37 top cover shift, and rails and forks. They cut a slot at the top of the case on both sides to weld in a steel block on each side, that gets drilled front-to-back for the two 37 Buick shift rails. The Selector rails were down deeper, and also had a side-to-side rail for the gate. All that was removed, and swapped to 37 rails and forks. Then they welded a plug in the 2 Selector shift holes on the other side of the case and bottom front. Lots of work to get it right. This trans was never run years ago when modded; it has many new parts from back then, like 1/R slider gear, 2nd, syncro, etc.

 

So Frank, what you are saying is that you think theres a Buick mainshaft that has a short, 6 spline end? So you are thinking you can just swap in the Olds input shaft? But then you have to use the Buick gears, right? Or can you swap the Olds gears onto the Buick mainshaft? Keep in mind, I am a "musclecar guy", so I have never seen the insides of either of these boxes...

 

I was under the impression the Olds gears were stronger? Did I get confused? It happens with alarming regularity... So, if you wanted to run an olds engine with the Buick toploader case and the ford torque tube, you would just swap the olds input shaft into the Buick? The Buick input shaft is too short to work with the olds bellhousing, right? Or am I confused yet again? bear with me here, I am a musclecar guy lost in a hot rod world...

 

Is '37 the last year for the top shift case in the Buick? What '56 Hot Rod is the buick trans article in? I dont think I have it. Can you post it, or email it to me?

 

George; The HRM 56 tech is linked on post #51 from Buford26 on this thread about Selector shifters:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5876394#post5876394

I also found another different thread where Buford26 says the Buick always was closed drive until the end in 1960. Now that makes me wonder about the post from the hamber who was at Olds back then, and said Olds bought to leftover Buick transmissions in 1960. Olds would have had to convert them?

Also found another thread where someone said 37 OR 38, and some reference to possibly a 39 not having all the correct pieces?; QUOTE "so it's best to use a 37/38" .....as I recall.

 

Faslcongeorge
Yes it's the same trans. About the packards, We ran a packard against a 265 sbc in the early '60's. It was a simple 5/8 inch plate adapter. Blew the the bottom out of the case on several of them. I'm thinking that we didn't get the forks in there right. Nice to find that out 50 years later. Always thought the packard was weak. Norm

 

Thanks for all your help on this Frank. I wonder if all these related threads couldn't be consolidated and added to the tech section. There really is a ton of info here if we could pull it all together.

 

Ok, read the Hot Rod article, what I get from that is that the '40 up gears are needed only to mate with the olds output shaft necessary to convert to open drive. So if you are going to use it with the torque-tube, the '36/'38 trans can be used as-is. The only thing I am still unclear on is will the Buick input shaft work with an Olds, or do you need to install an Olds input shaft in the Buick trans?

I have a couple mags with road tests on fifties era Buicks, I'll read them and see in they mention torque tubes.

 

A quick google search on Buick torque-tube yielded threads on eliminating torque-tubes from Buicks as late as '58, so its probably correct that all the Buick 3 speeds used torque-tubes. Still wondering about the input shaft? Anybody?

 

Buick used torque tubes through 1960. I've seen a '64 Buick standard shift car with a Chevy style non synchro low three speed, similar to what '55-'65 Chevies used.

 

The input shaft from the Olds trans is longer that the 37 Buick. I have both here if you need a pic.

So, yes, if you are using an Olds or Cad engine, the 37 Buick trans needs a longer input shaft. And that shaft is found in an Olds Selector trans.

 

Edit, sort of...

George, the input swaps or any other of the gears is really hard to explain in 1000 words or less, if you don't have the pieces there to follow along..

If you found a stock 37 Buick trans and just wanted to use the Olds longer input..it won't fit. That's because the syncro clutch ring is a different size on the front of the syncro ***'y.

Those earliest of the Buick 6 bolts have changes in syncro sizes from what I have seen. because:

I did have an 37 Buick trans here that had Olds guts swapped back in the day. Olds input and tailshaft, open drive. The new owner was doing a flathead motor which needs a short Buick input. I was able to find in an old racers stash, a short input that would mesh with whatever the heck syncro that old swapper used in the Olds conversion.

This is why I think the Buick trans have changed a bit from the 30s, to that "40-48", as well as 49-60. A parts book won't help, as it would show different part numbers, but not describe what the change was.

 

Yup, I checked a road test in March '59 Hot Rod last night, it still had the torque tube.

 

Hey guys, been following this thread closely.
I recently picked-up(from a fellow HAMBer) a 37 Buick 6 bolt box and shifter.
Years ago it had been converted to accept the Ford torque tube, it has the Ford mount and has had the output shaft machined to accept the Ford joint.
Unfortunately the rest of the case is basically empty.
My plan is to put the trans behind my small ST8 and connect it to a Ford tt.
I was thinking that I could pick up a later Buick 40-48 trans and swap all of the parts while keeping the output shaft that came with the trans.
The problem is how do I tell what year output shaft I actually have and what other gears would mesh with it??

 

So you need to use the Olds input shaft and gears, you might be able to use the buick output shaft. Probably just as easy to shorten and re-spline the olds piece and not go to all that h***le.

So top-loader '36/'38 Buick case, Olds selectro internals, re-spline the Olds output shaft, no tailshaft housing, drill and tap the back of the Buick case to accept the early ford rear trans mount.

 

When you get the shaft out of the case, try the best you can to compare the long spiral splines where 1/r slider slides, to the pic that I put up. If you look at my pic, you should see that one is "twisted" more.


you say empty case? I hope your 37 shift rails are there (two), and the 3 pieces that are fork related. Those would be two forks, and then another casted part that the tang of the shifter grabs.

detent springs and balls are no big deal, common stuff.

 

Yeah the case is empty "no rails" and the "two forks" are not there either
although the cast piece is.
I know I have my hands full here!!
Once the gears are worked out would it be possible to fab up the forks?

 

You being in Pa; I just read about an Amish foundry in Pa, that does casting in bronze and cast iron.

Rails can be made from "drill rod",.... so I was told by a real mechanical engineer

I'd have to look at some forks, but I'm thinking cast is the way to go. But let me look. You won't find used ones, and it's unlikey any NOS ones could be ID'ed by a potential seller, as the tags are probably gone.

 

No opposed to having some thing cast, but I was thinking If guys were adapting Ford shift towers to these types of trannies, why couldn't I modifiy Ford forks??

 

Sorry, I forgot to take pics for 2 days now


In case other people reading along, don't have either transmission to look at to see what we are talking about:

The 32-39 top shifted Ford trans is totally different than a 6 bolt Buick top shifted, due to where the rails and forks are located.

The Buick top cover with it's shifter attached, does not have rails in it, nor forks attached to it. Those parts remain inside the trans body.

On the Ford, the rails and forks are part of the top cover and shifter.

So, the Ford forks need to reach much deeper into the trans, compared to Buick shorty forks that are very near the 1/R slider gear, and the 2/3 syncro,(which has a ring on it that the fork slides onto).

Here are 2 pics of 37 Buick forks and the 3rd part of the fork setup. That 3rd part hooks to the front of the 1/.R rail and it gives a slot for the shifter tang to grab. The 1/R fork is at the rear of that rail.

The 2/3 fork has a notch built into it, as it sits so close to the shifter tang, that a 4th part was not needed.



When it comes down to castings; I have heard so many terms in the hobby over the years...like: cast iron, cast steel, nodular iron, ductile, etc.
I have no clue what these forks are made of, so if anybody knows what material were used on automotive shift forks besides non-ferrous like bronze/br***, let us know.

 

F&J,
If using a side shift, 40-48 trans for parts, are there also similar forks?

 

I never owned one. I would ***ume it would be a selector type? Does anyone know here?

I still wonder why the HotRod 1956 article says 40-48, and excludes the later ones?


Let me look at some Olds selector forks in my pile.

 

Here are the selector forks along with what they connect to: the gear is the 1/R sliding gear that slides on that long twisted spiral on the mainshaft, and the 2/3 syncro.

Also put the 37 Buick forks in there for comparions.

The only thing the selector forks might be good for, is just using the parts that have the rail bore and set screw; then weld fabbed forks to those?