4 Banger Guys!!....Block condition questions, found 2 B's I think??

Ok,...I've known that there have been two Model A engines that have been made free to me for almost a year. I looked at them a while back, but knew nothing about them,...untill I started doing some research!

Went over to the guys place this afternoon and took a good close look at them. Here's where the questions come in....

By the way they look, I'm thinking they are BOTH model B engines....they both have light surface rust on them. Stored in a dry barn area, but never had any oil in them during storage.....both are frozen. The first one has no head and the cylinders have some light pitting in them here and there, not much really. Has the Model B style flywheel cover and the crank is in it,....cant see the crank much but it looks like the outside of the engine,..lightly rusted. Not sure about pitting, etc.

The other Engine has its head on it, and has a "C" on the top of it towards the front of the head,...cant get a number off the head as part of it is worn and it was a little dim inside the barn. The flywheel cover looks NOT to be the Model B one though, which threw me,...what's with that? Doesn't have its oil filler tube, so you could actually peer inside a bit,....lightly rusted as the other one,...looks like it might be better though,....MIGHT BE??

I told him I'd take both of them,....I'm actually doing him a favor by taking them from him,.....making room actually. Both are free,...

***Questions are,....can a block that has some light pitting be brought back cfrom the dead? IF so how much work,...how big can you go and mill the cylinders, etc.?? Are they worth putting work into or just for parts at this point?
Then I realized after looking at them that there's an A engine that looked to be made a generator not far from my house in an old s****yard!,.....didn't generators usually use Model B or Diamond A engines??

Thanks in advance!

 

There are alot of Model A engines with Model B heads on them but who knows you may have found the real thing. Either way they are good property. Remove the heads and pour some Kroil (gun cleaning penetrating oil) in each cylinder. Doesn't take long to loosen one of these up. Alot of Model A engines were used in stationary engines like a pull type combine (grain harvester) out here in Kansas.

 

Yeah like I said, the real flywheel cover and even the timing cover on the front are correct for a model B on the engine without the head,....the other has the regular Model A flywheel cover and I THINK it had the Model B timing cover on it though,...I know it had the "C" marked head,....pretty cool either way.

I'm getting them from him tomorrow morning,....this outta be cool.

 

don.t b and c blocks have fuel pumps. the two i had thought the years did.

 

yeah thats the other thing,...(now that you brought that up),...If I remember correctly, (again, it was dim, we needed a flashlight!! )they both had fuel pumps,.....we'll see when i get them tomorrow.

I'll post pics,....hopefully i'll get a few minutes and get to that engine in the old generator at that s****yard, it had oil in it,...that i know for sure!!

This stuff's awsome!,......its like finding buried treasure!!!

 

Quickest way to tell a B (32-33-34) is the fuel pump boss on the side of the block. Yes there are others, but this is the fastest. When put in a model A the mounting boss is most often just covered with a block off plate. Let me know - I can send you a pic or you one to me. I have a couple to compare to, one in my 32 Seedan, one in my 29 Coupe. Not wanting to start an argument or huge debate, but that I know of no such thing as a C, though some 33-34 banger parts confuse the issue with markings and such.
Sounds like cool stuff either way, and the price sounds reet!!

 

yeah, i'm new to the 4 banger world,....just learning,...as far as the "C" goes,....its an embossed "C" on the top of the head,....I just read a small bit on it a few minutes ago on another site,....

yeah send a pic or two,....post em...i'm curious to see your setup.
thanks.

 

wow! i just came back from that s****yard with the 4 banger generator,....$150 bucks later i have a 4 banger that turns! (almost all the oil drained out when it turned on its side...)

has a B flywheel housing, i think it also has a B timing cover too.....i've gotta check her out more carefully.....

UPDATE,...Nope just a nice looking A motor,....with a B Flywheel cover and timing cover,..pretty interesting how people swapped all kinds of stuff back in the day!
Still a nice engine, but I still have to unload it,...that's tomorrow!!!

 

The real question is, does it have the counterbalanced crank. If they do then you got somthing.

Chris

 

hey, either way, i'll be happy!! I can always find a correct crank if none of these has them in it.....its not like i'm starting on building one up right away,.....

 

Photos please...

 

my friggin camera isn't working!!!?? It gets weird in the cold sometimes!

 

A) Well, forgive me,..... I didn't think I was making that big of a deal about the timing cover,....guess I just didn't see it that way. As I have stated various times, I'm new to the 4 bangers.

B) After doing some research (which is what I mentioned I did before to find some differences out between the two) I found a good amount of information here:

http://idisk.mac.com/forever4/Public/index.htm

***Which included where I got my info on timing covers from:

http://idisk.mac.com/forever4/Public/pages/timingcovers.htm

Now I might be wrong but after reading up on this man's webpage, I felt confident that he knew a great deal about the differences between the Model A and B engines,.....maybe I was wrong....like I said I'm new to the world of 4 bangers.

So, am I to ***ume from your post, that my enthusiasm for what I may or may not have found makes you irritated? Forgive me if i'm reading into it....I just didn't know what to make of it....I was hoping you'd weigh in with some useful info,....I've seen your webpage before....great work!

Just curious.....

 

"sensitive little kid...."

Interesting!.....I pay you a compliment and you come back and give me a jab,....NICE. That sure as hell makes no sense at all!

 

I picked up that one at the s****yard for $150,....got that home yesterday.
After calling my friend, I took a ride on over and picked up the other two engines with him.
One was looking to certainly be a "B" as its block has the fuel pump boss...the other looked to be just a run of the mill A in rough shape.

Here's the photos of all three engines,....if you see anything worth noting, please let me know!! PS,...is there REALLY a "Diamond A" engine or is this just BS??!! If there is, is it true that there's an "X" stamped somewhere on the block? If so, where so I can take a good look to check for it.

First off, here's the "A" mill from the s**** yard, I dug into it a little so see what I had,....never got the oilpan taken off,....it got late and way too cold!

Nuts on the head came off with almost no effort! Looks nice inside cylinder walls, crank, etc. Some valves kept sticking, but most worked fine,....soaked her up with PB Blaster and some oil then sealed her back up for the future!



Next was the B engine,...it took quite a lot of soaking with Kroil and PB to get the head off. Inside the cylinders are rough, but there doesn't look to be any pitting...a good thing!



The head has a "C" and a very small "N" inside the C, embossed on it. What does this denote guys?? Is this what I've read people referring to as a "C" head? School me!


Flywheel housing....

Turned her over and pulled off the oil pan......looks like the correct crank,...right? Counterbalanced??

The cylinders after brushing them with a wire brush a little to take off the rust,...smoother, but this will need some love,.....I filled the cylinders with PB and oil,.....Also hit the crank with both PB and oil.


The other engine from my friend's place,....looks like your run of the mill A block,...no boss for a fuel pump and the crank is a standard A crank, no counter weights. Good for parts i suspect?


So what do you guys make out of these engines? Two were free (the B and the other that's laying on ther ground,....the one from the s**** yard was $150). Did I make out good??

Thanks for the input and info in advance!

 

Kid, you did good. The "C" denotes a Model B head. Don't ask me why. If nothing else you could power wash 'em, spray paint them with Model A engine paint ($9 a can), and sell them for rebuilder cores on that big online auction website. Should bring real good return on investment. One more word of advice.....Model B engines have thinner cylinder walls and are more prone to cracking. So, it may not be as valuable as you hope. But still a good find.

 

The reason there is a C cast into the head of a B engine, is that the A engines that the police got had 5,5 to 1 c/r instead of 4,2 to 1 c/r, so in order to identify the two different A heads, the police head had a B cast into them.

Kedde.

 

is that true? good info, thanks!!

 

Well fact is I didn't take them with any intent to resell them,....I have started to become more and more interested in eventually building a Model A race engine,..nothing to extreme, but the turning point had come when i read an article in Ol Skool Rods (not one of my favorites, but hey, it was on the news stand!) on a traditional Ford hot rod truck with a mildly built 4 banger in it running a Winfield head and B crank,....couple that with all the other cool 4 bangers out there I've seen,..well it got me thinking!!

So whats my best bet then to build a solid reliable fast 4 banger,...stick with a model A block with B crank and an aftermarket head and two 94s for breathing,....OR go after building up the B block?? What other advantages does the B have over the A block other than its crank and head??

Thanks in advance as always!!!

 

That counterbalanced crank is a VERY nice score! I have a built model B but has a crank that had counter weights put on it. An original counterbalanced crank is a nice piece to have. I just saw one go on e-bay for 416.00. I also have a model A diamond block that came out of a combine that is like brand new. Plan on building a nice engine with that one. I am building a 31 coupe that will have the model B with an original Riley overhead valve head. Banger is much cooler and more fun than the standard small block chevy.

Have fun,

Jim

 

awsome!...yeah I was wondering if I had what I thought i had.

Now let me ask you, how well does it work to just put the counterbaleanced crank into a model A engine and so on,.....or am I better off working over the B I have and just sticking with that. I ask only because that A that is in such good condition makes me think of going that route...

Just looking for an honest opinion. Thanks!

 

Lucky star,....
thanks. Guess I'll be looking to put some tlc into the B block then. Just curious though,....I keep seeing many pics of guys with pretty nicely built A blocks instead of B's,.....do you think its just a matter of not having found a B,...or just someone's personal preference to do so???

Thanks

 

There were five million A blocks made and probably only one hundred thousand B blocks. Thats why you see more A's. Keep going with the bangers; its more fun and there is a lot of help available on this and other forums.

 

So do you guys worry about the inherent weakness in the B block and its potential to crack? If you want to hammer it now and then,....any worries?

I hear things off and on about this and wonder how often you see such things and how hard it is to get around and fix?

Thanks

 

Good score. Especially the B engine. My kind of price!

Some of the serious banger builders like to fit the B crank into an A block, especially if they can find a diamond A block to use, because of the B blocks known weaknesses. You can either turn the B crank's mains journals down to suit the A caps or have the A block modified to suit the larger journals that are on the crank (I think I've got that last bit right).

Well done, though. You're now off the bottom rung of a very long ladder and you're working your way up! There's a monthly banger meet on here - as I think has been mentioned - so have a good search through the archives.

 

Artiki-
so it seems almost like its more of a "personal preference" than based mostly on the inherent weaknesses of the B block. That would make sense to me,...go with a stronger block even if the B blocks have larger throws and mains...it would seem more reliable in the end, wouldn't it? Still, no one seems to really know much about specifically how much these B blocks are known to have problems with cracking?

I should say that I'm looking for anyone who has known another, or has had themselves a B block with issues of cracking. What did it, how bad, was it fixable, if its fixed is it reliable and for how long will it be if you've now spent some serious cash to get it to where it needs to be??

Brent,....weigh in, you'd know the answers....just dont throttle me,..ok??

Thanks in advance!

 

A's, B's, and T's were made new up til about 1942 as diamond engines, apparently for companies like Gleaner that made machinery powered by Ford engines.
On A and B, block diamond is right above the side timing cover, a little bigger than this<> and very clear. Head diamond is beneath water pump hole, B's are often smudged/poorly cast marks. Presence of lettering other than the C is likely an indicator of a diamond...heads bear various marks not found on production vehicle castngs, blocks have a row of date castings and whatnot along p***enger side pan rail area. Normal vehicle A and B blocks have almost no cast in writing. Diamond castings are nice because they have hardened valve seats like V8 blocks, a nice feature that will save you time and money as they are usually plenty good to go with just a touchup grind.

 

This is AMAZING!!
So I decided to hit the B block with some engine degreaser,...and just for the hell of it, wire brush it right where the diamond was supposed to be above the timing cover,....

BINGO! A diamond cast into it!!!
Take a look,...a little dirt still when i took it but its there!!
I can't belive it,...nothing this cool ever happens to me!! HA!

 

You just won a lottery...and Ford parts will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no parts...

 

I think i'm going to make a copy of that saying and hang it in our kitchen! evertime my wife starts to doubt my hobby/disease,....i'll just point to it and grin.....