A friend of mine has a 64 catalina 4 door that he says has a 400 pontiac in it..Are these good engines to play with?? are there alot of speed parts for them?? I have never built a pontiac before so i am asking before i leap so to speak...he also told me that the shifter was really weird..something to the effect that reverse was all the way down when you were pulling the shift lever down...will that be a problem getting a different shifter for it if i dont use the stock column??
400's came out in 67? ... the trans is a hydramatic. expensive to repair if you ever have to. never drive a hydramatic drunk. you will put it in reverse thinking you are in low and back over the junipers. 400 pontiacs got gobs of torque. edelbrock makes heads for them, here is all sorts of speed parts for them... they were in GTO's. yours may be a 389 if it is the original motor.
As 49 said, if it's the original engine it'll be a 389, but someone could've put a 400 in it although if it has that original weird shift pattern I doubt it. The reason being that the trans with that shift pattern won't fit the bellhousing of the later 400. If reverse is all the way down, it's probably a trans that was called a rotohydramatic, or slim jim. That trans won't stand any high HP or trailer towing or any kind of misuse.
My first car was a 69 Pontiac Executive with a 400. I was always told that in the late 60s Pontiac had two different versions of the 400. The ones that were in the GTOs and such were a heavier duty motor with great performance options. They also had a lighter duty 400 (Bonneville, executive, etc.) that were designed for a smoother quiter ride. So much so that they had a nylon coating on the timing gear teeth. Lousy if you're lookin for performance. Keep in mind this was all stuff that was fed to a dumb kid with his first car and I haven't had that beast for years. I do remember it had plenty of muscle, but that I replaced the timing set twice when the car was in my care. Good luck. I might be full of shit, but maybe someone else can corroborate my story.
Finally - a topic I know a little about! I've had a '69 Firebird Conv. 400 since 1989. I've rebuilt it and lived with it since then. Pontiacs run hot. You'll see that every GTO at every show has the paint burnt off the intake and heads. This is because the exhaust for the center 2 cylinders passes through the intake under the carb and exits the head on the opposite side. This design maximizes the amount of heat at the air/fuel mixture which is an obvious power loss. Racers rework the heads to block off the passsages to the intake and force the exhaust out on the correct side of the engine. In addition the distributors run backward from what all other GM engines do. Also, the water pump has funny little hat shaped tubes that are tough to get positioned while setting the gasket, but if you don't get it right the pump doesn't flow properly and your engine will violently overheat. The pump is tough to install because it mounts to the block and intake all in one motion so it's hard to prevent leaks. In summary, they suck. As much as I like Pontiac styling and the extra luxury goodies they generally have over Chevys, there's a reason everyone builds Chevys.
Chevy's have exhaust heat crossovers too and they also dump hot oil directly on the intake manifold! Not so with a pontiac engine. The pontiac keeps the intake cool by using a seperate valley pan under the intake. They run hot if you are trying to run cheap gas in an old 10.75 to 1 goat motor and or you don't maintain the cooling system. Old pontiacs are great engines. The dizzy runs counter clockwise, not backwards. You tighten the water pump to intake manifold bolt first then tighten the intake if you don't want it to leak oil from the timing cover that is, As this bolt is NOT affected when changing out a water pump. Do your homework before you spout off to what sucks.
Jay, check the numbers on your motor before anything else & ascertain what the hell you have in your old Poncho. Regardless of 389 or 400, they make gobs of torque, and are cheaper than Fords to beef up (though not by much).
pontiacs run hot...uh.. no that aint true. yes they have the 2 exhaust ports close together which burns the paint off the heads.. that does not mean they run hot. I had a 69 GTO judge and a 69 grand Prix. neither ran hot. the GTO seemed to have problems with rear ends and 4 speed transmissions though. 3 rears and 2 trannies. muncies were $125.00 a pop back then. and it would take half a day and $125.00 more to pull a posi rear out of another GTO at the junk yard. those were the days.
Pontiac started casting blocks drilled and tapped for the block mounted starter and later standardized BOPC block pattern in 1963, thus any 421, 389, 326 or 400, 428, and 455 made after that time would be able to use all the later GM automatics with the BOPC bolt pattern. Short wheelbase fullsize cars (Catalina and GP) 61 thru 64 used the 3 speed torque converter automatics referred to as RotoHydromatic, and yes, the standardized PRNDL pattern for shifting wasn't MANDATED by the government until later. I have owned many Pontiacs over the years and NEVER had any of them overheat. In fact all modern Pontiac V8s from 55 through 59 used a much more efficient reverse flow cooling system (water pump, heads, block, and back to the radiator) until Pontiac abandoned it 1960 (probably because non Pontiac mechanics didn't understand what they were dealing with and refused to learn). If someone had a Pontiac V8 with an overheating problem, it was most probably caused by mechanical problems overlooked by the user (a trait commonly referred to as operator malfunction).
Had a 70 grand prix with a 400 and a turbo 400 trans. I gave it a heck of a pounding. Lots of power bottom to top
From my research, it seems that the 389 and 400 were impressive little beasts. TORQUE MONSTERS to be exact. Honestly, I'd rather have a high torque motor than a ridiculously high HP motor anyhow... especially in light cars that are built for performance, no work. I'm running a 59' poncho 389 with a tri power intake in the truck I am building up this winter. Cost for the rebuilds on these things is cheap. Parts are reasonable. There are speed parts around. There are also some resources and forums where you can get damn near any modding information for them. Honestly, I don't think you'll regret it at all. Contact "forsakenfew" on here. He's not running a 400, he's running a 389. But, it's the predecessor to the 400, and he'll give you a good rundown of what he thinks. (I'll sum it up for you though... he thinks it's the shit too! ) Good luck, and happy wrenching!
Thanks guys i'm going to go out and look at this car and i'll come back with some numbers...i do like the torque part so far
Obviously you dont know Pontiacs. I run 4 400s in different cars and they all run about 175 even in the hottest weather and heavy traffic. I run a non ported head 400 on Pump gas and do mid 12s in the quarter with one and my 0-60 ft is 1.67 on radial tires. Stock rebuild, stock th350 with 3,000 stall and 3:73 gears. You dont know Pontiacs! Also the intake is easy to install as you just tighten up the front bolt against the timing cover and then torque down the intake bolts. A trick is to cut the water passage off the front so intake swaps are fast and you dont have to drain water to do the swap and you can align the ports to the head, also distributer can stay in the block untouched.. As far as the tubes you speak of, 1968 and earlier did not have them and they ran two plates at the water pump. The 1969 on up ran one plate and the tubes which are a breeze to install. Pontiacs always had an air gap intake as the vally pan was seperated. Also most all engines had the heat crossover but as was said , this is very easy to block off and gains about .1 second in the 1/4 mile. All Pontiac pistons from the factory had flat top pistons and fully machined chambers. This is why you can run over 10:1 compression on pump gas also.
No nylon gears for Pontiac. Had a Chevy 350 that stripped them once,mid 70s to late 70s block but of all the Pontiacs I have seen which has to be in the 40+ , none had nylon gears. The only difference to performance blocks and standard blocks were heads and exhaust. The two bbl and 4 bbl engines just used different heads/ intakes. Pistons and all other internals were the same.
That'd be a poncho motor in the pic there with the tri power intake sitting on top of it, lookin pretty!
For what it's worth, i've got some 6X heads sitting in storage with no motor under them. I know very little about them other than some guy telling me "they're worth alot." You all know how reliable some guy is...
1965 is the year the BOP pattern is standard, lot of misconceptions here. Every publication I've read and person I've talked with about this says 61-64 is a different pattern from the BOP. About 10 years ago an adapter was being made for the 61-64 pattern to a late trans, it was a ring that had a starter ear on it. Believe it was made specifically for guys with the Roto-Hydro because they had a flatter floor and the dual coupling doesn't fit without modifications to the trans tunnel. '64 Catalina is the Roto-Hydramatic, those are crap, the Bonneville still ran the Dual-Coupling Hydro which is a decent trans. The ID on the block is on the right (passenger) side front below the head, should be a 6-digit number and a 2 or 3 digit motor ID code. There's also a number over the center exhaust port on the heads, cast in, which will help ID them. If the motor is stock, the six-digit number should match, or be close to matching, the serial number on the door post. As for the motor, cheap to build, tons of torque, you wouldn't be dissapointed in it. Some early 70's motors had a nylon timing gear, but generally by 80,000 they had broken and been replaced. In 65 the intake manifold bolt pattern changes, 61-64 are unique in this area too. The first car I had to myself was my dad's '70 Gran Prix that he'd ordered new with a 4-speed. I beat on it pretty good, too, and it would really haul ass, 100+ was easy reach for that car and it had a 3:55 in the back. Even the '60 Catalina I still have with the 389 and dual-coupling Hydro would really get up and go. I've had some 455's too, the torque out of one of those will rip trees out of the ground.
Actually, I think the reason everyone builds Chevies is the same reason everyone built flatheads 50-60 years ago--they're available, cheap, and respond well to modifications. It's true that, all else being equal, it will take more radiator to cool a Pontiac than a SBC. I think that's why they make different sizes of radiators. It takes more to cool a big block Chevy than a small block too; I guess they suck as well. I knew a guy with a '67 Lemans that said he had three different Pontiac engines in his car, but they all ran hot, so he solved the problem by installing a 350 Chevy. I guess he thought that doing three engine swaps was more cost effective than buying a bigger radiator.
Hmmm... Wrong and wrong... try again please.... Pontiacs are great motors, a buddy of mine has my old '79 GMC that has a Pontiac 400 in it, best running truck I ever had... Not the best mileage though.. My first car was a '69 LeMans with a 400 out of a GTO in it. Shitty body, shitty keystone classics, awesome engine... Neither run hot, both went like stink... I'd use a Pontiac motor in a heart beat... Now I'll wait for flamedabone to chime in...
I had a '76 El Camino that someone had swapped in a 2bbl Pontiac 400. The car was shit but ran GREAT!! I 'blew up' the rear end a couple times power brakin' it. HaHaHa! Have a '69/70 400 engine under my bench now, waiting for a rebuild.
pontiacs in general are killers...just avoid the 350-DOG. you should have a 389. there are several ways to adapt it to a regular transmission- the easiest being taking the block down to your local machine shop and having them drill the holes for a post 64 starter, and viola- no problem. I run this exact motor in my wagon- it's a murder machine with tri power and al stock parts. loaded up with my crew, all our stuff, basically an entire tool box and a full tank of gas, drove it from Austin to Denton-never touched 185-even when we sat in traffic for an hour! there are about 15 different ways to make these thing run icy cool, but buy it first and we will get into the nuts and bolts of it later- most expensive one is a radiator- cheapes involves 4 feet of heater hose- and the heater hose trick is good for about 15 degrees... cool thing is you have the "cheaper" choice of tri power intake. (there are 2 designs-pre and post 65- post 65= spendy sometimes-post= el-cheapo!) numerous header, manifold and cast iron header designs as well- the super duty cast headers flow great numbers, look kick ass, and cost around the same as headers...and they don't leak! there are about 20 good to great cylinder head designs as well. depends on what you wanna spend on them. (honestly, there are no "bad" poncho heads- just different port configurations...a "crap" set of poncho heads are usually low compression, big chamber heads- but there are really ony 4 designs, so you can easily stab big valves, port like crazy, and mill the hell out of 'em. I saw a trailer full of "good casting #" heads at Springfield this year...most expensive set was 200 bucks. ram air 4 heads are pricey, but you probably won't fall into any of those.) as far as transmissions are concerned, you have alot of choices- there are 4 speed bellhousings available, scattershields, and the like.- and you can get them for either design of block as well ( the bolt pattern is the same- starter mounts either to the bellhousing or the block-block is later year, bell is early) all in all, these things love to go into little light cars. it's not unlike being shot out of a cannon when the poncho starts workin with ya.
Check out some of the Pontiac sites and you will see that there are so many aftermarket engines and parts now for them. Allpontiac.com, Jim Butler Performance, Kens Speed and Machine, Ace Brewer at Pacific Performance Pontiac etc. Lots of places. You can now get a killer stroker kit for the 400s for about $1700 and this includes custom forged pistons, H-Beam rods, custom crank, bearings etc and fully ballanced. Nice move to turn a 400 to a 468 .Jim Butler has a full line on his site. A stock built 455 with mild cam and the Edelbrock heads and small cam makes around 530 HP and close to 600 flbs torque. Not bad for running piss water gas in them also as compression will be about 10:1 with the aluminum heads. This is like running 9:1 compression with cast iron as far as heat and detonation are concerned. Build up the Poncho!!
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