Projects '47 Buick Super Sedanette project

@BJR These were surprisingly in decent condition. When I did my '63 Chevy wagon, I had to replace about 25% of it. Maybe a WI car (wagon) vs OK car (Buick)?

 

Ha! I had to pull it back down some, because I left the dome light under there. This is FAR from my best work. It's fought me every step of the way. No surprise, since the whole project has been like that. But it's better than it was. Now mouse shit doesn't rain on my head anymore.
Before:

After:

 

Having put a headliner in my chopped 49 Buick I feel your pain. It's a very hard job, but a year later all the wrinkles have disappeared.

 

looks good to me!

 

The way these are done, is weird. There is a tack strip over the doors, and there was a hidem strip over where the staples/tacks go in. So, it looks like a double layer of windlace. I'm thinking I'll make some pieces out of door card material & cover them with the same teal upholstery that can hide those spots. But I'm just making it up as I go.

 

Got the trans in today. It works great. Rebuilt, with a new converter price $1050. Midwest Converters in Rockford, IL. It was worth the drive there (about 100 miles), to get it for half the cost locally. Plus, the $$ for tolls. Effin' Illinois. Good dudes, good work. raceconverters.com.
On to the next problem. Working on the theory that the air wasn't all going into the radiator, but rushing over it, I did this:

Thinking I'm a genius and will make a metal piece when I'm proven right. WRONG. Still getting hot. The next step is a new and bigger radiator. I'll have to get this one out & do some precise measuring. I've got plenty of room to go up, but it will have to be much narrower. Thinking about just the square inches of cooling surface, this one doesn't seem much different than other downflows, but I'll cram the biggest one I can fit in there. Getting closer.

 

Might check out these guys, they have pics with dimensions, outlet positions, mounting brackets etc for many older cars.
Might take some time searching, but cheaper than custom made.
I have them in several cars and they seem to cool good
https://www.championradiators.com/

 

I have a Champion in my car, made for a '65 Chevy. I had to drill some holes in the mounting flanges.

On eBay, look up radiators4less. Free shipping and they list all the dimensions on everything they sell.

 

I have a 49 Buick Sedanette and have been fighting the cooling issue throughout the build. So has RockAble, who posted his 49 build on here. You might want to check his thread and see what he ended up doing.

 

FWIW, don't forget to open up the inner fenders to let air out, I had to do that on my '49 and it made a big difference in the cooling it.

 

Letting the air out may be why I have no cooling problems with my 49 with a 472 Cad engine. When I chopped the car I cut the cowl so the top of the cowl with the wipers dropped 2.5". I extended the hood 2" also. This left a 2.5" gap between the hood and the top of the cowl to let the hot air out.

 

I will promise you that helped you more than you can know. Getting the hot air out is a battle in these cars.

His car is overheating so quickly, there is something else wrong. Could be radiator capacity but it surely is a lack of air flow. That fan needs a relay where it can draw 30 amps or so, not a push pull switch. Also, I'm still not convinced the system is bled or that an electric fan will get it done.

I have a big ass Walker copper radiator and a Flow Kooler pump. No electric fan would move enough air to keep it cool. Once I put a mechanical fan on it, it would stay cool except when sitting in traffic with the AC running. That is when I added the additional small fans. Two of them pulling air out of the engine compartment and two pulling air across the top (hottest) part of the radiator.

 

@rockable I know the body style is different ('47 vs '49) but what is the core size of your radiator? I know the one I was running should be sufficient for a SBC, but I have heard the Cad's run a little hotter. Most new builds use electric fans now, and I did get a Spal to replace the no-name one that was in there. I'm on my 3rd electric fan. I tried dual fans from a Honda, before getting the 16" no-name shroud & fan, then the 16" Spal. Yes, I should have used a thermostat switch to start the fan when needed, but I'm out of ports into the cooling system. These Cads don't seem to have as many as a SBC.

@BJR It seemed to have the same problem with the hood off. It's come down to radiator capacity, in my mind anyway, but the Grffin I had in there should run cooler than it has been.

A lot of the downflow radiators I've found for V8 powered old cars, don't really have any more core size, so I fail to see what the difference is with the one I have. The water doesn't care if it's a crossflow, or downflow. I'm 99% sure the system was air-free. I've already pulled out what I had in there. Plan is to make a cardboard or plywood dummy that I can fit into my space and then find a radiator that will take up as much of that as possible. Measuring seems easy enough, but with the shape of the hood, etc., I'd like to see what I can fit in there, before I go web hunting. My engine sits quite a way back in the engine compartment, due the P.O.'s placement of the engine. It has to be there, unless I do some major changes (ie: different oil pan, trans mount, driveshaft, etc.). So, If I do run a mechanical fan, I'll have to fab a pretty impressive shroud, reminiscent of the '73 - '77 Monte Carlos.

Am I still missing something?

 

Is a surge tank off the table? You still may have an air-lock issue.

 

@bobss396 I had considered that and looked into it. The old T-Bird ones would have to be modified, as they bolt onto the intake (I think). I did add an in-hose filler that was at, or close to, the highest point of the system. I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that I had the air out.

 

My Walker copper/brass radiator is 22t X 18w X 2 1/2"d. It fits the original core support and all the sheet metal is now hung off it. Before, someone had put a cross flow radiator in it and the sheet metal was not anchored properly.

 

Thanks for the measurements @rockable . The one coming out was something like 28Wx17H, so that's why I'm wondering about the sizing. Cooling area isn't much different than yours. It's a 3 core Griffin. Do the new aluminum ones cool better than the old copper/brass?

Using C.A.D. (cardboard aided design), I made a template to find the maximum size that will fit. This is pretty tight to all sides, so something a little smaller for clearances will be what I'm looking for. Because of the shape of the hood, how far up into that area I go, will determine the width I can use. My previous crossflow was 28"W overall, but fit under the front fenders. To get above that, it's looking like 25"W max, and I still may have to trim the fender lips at that width. Depends on how far forward it gets mounted, and that depends on the thickness. It's looking like I have about 5" clearance for thickness. Should be plenty.


I could go a little taller, if I change the bottom mount/X-member, but this thing is LOW, and I feel better about leaving some space under it. And, that piece is heavy angle iron. I like the protection.
I'll start looking for radiators that fit into these parameters. The bottom size might still have the inlet a little lower than the outlet on the intake. So, using a little math: 30x15=450, 25.5x21.5=548.25, 22.75x25=568.75. The shorter, wider radiator seems to have the most cooling capacity/area. Obviously, it will be less with the tanks, etc. My old one comes in at 476. So, the tall/narrow radiator actually has less cooling area than the one I took out. Am I looking at this logically?

 

That is a logical assumption. A good starting point is the square inch area of the radiator in the vehicle the engine came out of. Usually, the OEM engineers do a pretty good job of figuring out what is needed. Get as close to that as possible. Other factors in that equation, such as open-air space under the hood, also can affect the overall cooling picture. Going from the Straight 8 to the Caddy removes a lot of that air space. Sometimes small cooling fans mounted in the inner fenders can help. I can't imagine that there is too much difference between your Caddy engine and Rock's 455 Buick in heat generation. Follow what he did.

 

@Bangingoldtin That's a good point. The stock Cad would have been 33x18.63 overall. Using the math I've been using, that's 614.79. There is no way to get that much cooling area in this car. I'm going to have to get the biggest area possible and hope for the best. It looks like others are doing it with less radiator. It might come down to getting the best radiator/fan/shroud combo, along with making sure that most of the airflow is directed into the core. I'd love to run a mechanical fan, but fabbing a shroud might be a pretty big task. Are there any spots on the web that talk about cfm of mechanical fans vs electric? That would be interesting to read as well.

 

The actual cooling capacity of radiators is complicated. You have single pass, dual pass and 4 pass radiators. Each one, when optimized with fluid flow and air flow can do a good job. Mostly, you will find 2 pass on aftermarket radiators. Aluminum radiators can cool very well, if properly engineered.

The dimensions I gave you are rough dimensions of the core. The cars came with tall radiators that stuck up into the hood hump. You aren't going to find an generic radiator like that. Johnson's or some of those guys can make you one but then you still have to deal with air flow.

The 48 I had, had a LT1 350 Chevy and it cooled just fine with electric fans. My 455 in my 49, would not cool with a Cooling Components set up on high. It just could not move the air through the engine compartment. It could draw enough air to hold a folded handkerchief on the front of the radiator but on the road, it would not stay cool. I'm sure aerodynamics had a lot to do with it.

To make matters worse, the hood is a big dome and hot air rises, so it accumulates in the are of the top of the engine. I'm not going to say you can't make one cool with electric fans but I have not had any luck trying to do it with this car and my 61 Buick. I just know that larger engines require more cooling capacity and air flow is a huge component of that. If everything is right, you should be able to keep it cool at highway speeds without the fan running. I never could get mine to do that. Look through my build thread, mostly at the end, and you will see all the shit I did.

 

Aerodynamics does enter the picture some. As you lower the car, air flow decreases under the car and some of the "draft effect" of pulling air out of the engine compartment lessens. Some schools of my thoughts are to add vents in the radiator support on each side of the radiator. My 53 has those to add cabin fresh air and have a surprising flow with the dampers open at road speed. I don't think they would have to be too big to push the hot air out of the engine bay at speed. These are some of the things I have been pondering when one of my 40s gets stuffed with a Nail Head.

 

Have you thought about louvering the back half of the hood to let air out?

 

@BJR I have considered louvers. If all else fails, that will get done.
I spent a lot of time today looking at radiators on the web, and here's some options I could make work:

Easiest - '55-'57 Chevy. Looks like I could easily put that in without any cutting/moving things.
core size is 17.25 x 21.5 = 370.9 (cooling surface area).

The rest might require a little trimming or reworking the already made lower mount.

'43-'48 Chevy. core- 18.63 x 19.75 = 367.9. Smaller area than the '55, and harder to mount. But taller, which would be easier for a mechanical fan.

'49-'54 Chevy. core - 17.13 x 21.75 = 372.5. A little bigger than the '55, but harder to mount.

'47-'54 Chevy Truck. core- 20.75 x 19.25 = 399.4. The biggest but would be the hardest to make fit.

The one I removed. core - 22.75 x 16 = 364. So, all these options are a little bigger than what I had, but not by a lot. Other than the last one. I could get a 4 row, instead of the 3 row I had.

I'm not sure that the difference in these is going to make too much difference, as far as cooling. But maybe getting a mechanical fan would help. I could always add an electric to the mechanical, if it was required. The shroud I had, was solid aluminum, about 1" depth, no holes other than for the fan. I'm liking the idea of "flaps" or louvers around the fan opening, so air can move freely at highway speeds. I will look into hot air getting removed from under the hood as well. Thanks for the advice, guys. This is a little frustrating.

@rockable I will spend some time on your build thread.

 

A 1" deep shroud can actually be worse than no shroud at all. At high flow rates, there is not enough space to let the air flow through. I guess there is too much turbulence in trying to turn the air toward the outlet. I had that problem with my Plymouth. It cooled better without the shroud and has not overhewted since.

The thicker the core, the more resistance there is to airflow. Electric fans are rated at so many cfm against X inches of H20, as I recall. It's not a lot of resistance and flow rate goes down as resistance goes up. If I recall correctly, double the resistance equals 1/4 the flow rate, assuming all else is same.

An engine driven fan requires and has more available HP. It basically forces the air through on these old cars, regardless of what else is limiting air flow.

With the advent of wind tunnels and advances in aerodynamics, today's automotive designers can get negative air pressure in the engine compartment and, therefore, get air to flow though with little resistance. I tried some air dams and stuff but never figured out how to get there.

They also have the data and the means to properly pair the electric fan to the radiator, so that it will cool while sitting still. I have had a couple of cars that I achieved that on but no big block cars.

 

What are you considering hot for temps? The 472 in my avatar runs 200/210 constantly.

 

@MMM1693 Boiling over and puking out the overflow. Gets hot enough the engine turns over slow & doesn't start. I can't pinpoint the temp, as I have 2 gauges on, and they both read differently. Factory gauge in front of the left head shows pegged @ 220. Then, I used a Mr. Gasket radiator cap w/ built in gauge. It always shows cooler. Your avatar has no hood, so it probably cools a little easier than this, which is fully enclosed.

 

I ordered a new radiator. The biggest I could fit, without major surgery. Simple cooling area math: old one has 364sqin of area, new has 372.5. It's made to fit '49-'54 Chevys. Core size is just a tad under what @rockable has. It is however, one of the new 2 row aluminum radiators with 1" tubes. They seem to have more coolant capacity, and more area for air to flow through. Supposed to cool up to 600HP. I'm going to try the aluminum shroud/electric fan again, but will cut windows into it with rubber flaps, for better air flow while driving. If this doesn't work, I will look into going to a mechanical fan. I will be switching to a temp operated fan. This requires some head scratching. There is no open port to put the sensor into, and I can find no one who makes a Cad thermostat housing w/ a bung. Ordered one for a BB Chev, and I think I can make it work with a little modification. Hopefully, it gets here soon and cures my problems. Cruising season is here.

 

I simply drilled and tapped the thermostat outlet neck for a sensor. Perhaps the radiator tank?
Ben

 

Remember, the top of the radiator is the hottest.

You can use something like this but be aware that this only rated for 20 amps. You may need to install a 40 amp relay and heavy wiring to get the most out of your fan. You would use this to trigger the relay. I would go for a brushless fan, since it may have run more than intermittently. Refer to you fan's specifications for max amp draw required.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-107006

 

I ordered the relay kit and will rewire it as recommended. My fan is a Spal. It's the upgraded fan offered for the Champion/American Eagle radiators, but I already was using it. The switch I was running it through before, isn't a cheap P.O.S. It was stock on the Buick and ran the heater fan. It has a fuse built right on the switch.