Well I thought I should throw my current 3d design out there to get some feedback. Given the availability of some neat equipment two of which being a plasma cutting table and one big-*** brake press I have approached the frame design differently than anything I have seen before. The frame will be made of flat sheets of plate plasma cut and then bent on our brake press. The pics show the overall flavour of the design, however much needs to be added and changed. I will elaborate on the design concept further as I go along.
Nice work and welcome aboard here at the HAMB... I use Alias-14 in my day-job and I know how time consuming 3-D can be, again nice work!! One tiny suggestion if I may. When you take your screen shots see if you can switch the view from 'Orthographic' to 'Perspective'...most 3-D software packages have both types of views...Ortho just doesn't look natural.
Thanks for the feedback, here I've changed the views to perspective and added a couple of the bare frame - keep in mind that this frame design will change big time before it goes to the burn table - I plan to break it down into sub-weldment section for manufacturability. The frame will be FEA'd to enhance strength and optimize strength/weight/appearance/cost factors - also with this concept the motor will be rigidly mounted in the frame (good/bad- ?) or be semi-rigidly mounted with some urethane bushings or something - either way I will have a front and mid plates for the engine/****** mounting. Also with the design there will be some hidden mechanism to adjust ride height and I'm hoping to come up with a rocker system to activate the coilovers - I'm thinking of having the base of the coilover on a rocker arm that will rotate and adjust the ride height - perhaps a hydrualic based system. Copper tube in the back = rad idea = not thought through yet or engineered - I'll have to brush off my thermodynamics books for that one - anyone tried simple copper tubing like I've mocked up - no fans just big surface area? 5 gallon moon tank in front = big coolant overflow/resevoir in the front . 15 gallon Moon fuel tank with mounting bracket integrated into the ch***is. Battery and hydraulic powerpak for ride height hidden behind driver or p***enger and alternator driven off the output of the ****** under p***enger. Motor - hopefully a short-bell hemi = something powerful but somewhat nostaglic. ****** = 4spd or 5spd. Aluminum moonroof with punched out "aircraft-style" holes. Well that is a few of the initial ideas - as I get to acquire more actual pieces or accurate cad models I will finalize things further - big ticket items needed include - motor,****** and rear end (9" ford likely). Once I have those things I can really make some progress. - that's about all for now.
what software are you using?? I have inventor and am wondering what you did with the materials to give the semi transparent appearance..
Sawzall, I'm using Solidworks 2008. The components have a "shiny" appearance with mirror-like reflections (take a close look at the Moon tanks) - this is a neat rendering feature in Solidworks 2008 that adds an extra cool factor to the virtual design but does require a little more graphic power to generate - this can be easily toggled on or off as needed.
What material thickness are you considering ? It could be an innovative idea,or really flimsy. What wheelbase are you using in this design ? --- The Copper "rad" idea would be ok for drag racing. I would be surprised if it would work on the street, even with hidden fans,because the surface area would be less compared to the fin area on a conventional radiator.
A cool frame design needs something nicer looking than a plain tube axle. Are you going to make your own I-beam axle ? Roth made one for Stealth 2000.
Unkl Ian, the wall thickness of the main "rail" plates as shown are 1/2" thick - but this will probably change - alot is still missing from the design I've shown in the pics. For example the front section I will be adding a "top" plate and additional crossmember plates. I'm hoping to have a more completed frame design in the next week or so that will better show my intentions - in the end I won't have any fear of structual integrity - where I work we have Solidworks FEA software and I will do some stress ****ysis prior to final design/plate thickness selection. The plasma table we use can cut up to 6" thick plate that is 100" x 300" and we commonly stock plate that is 96" x 288" in 1/4" up to 3" thickness in various grades. Wheelbase is set at 126" right now - looking over some other wheelbases it seems a little on the long side but I think it looks good in the 3d model. I really want the suicide-type set-up on the front axle and when I add that moon tank up front it really stretches it out. I also don't want the rear-end pulled in tight to the cab. Does anyone know of drawbacks or problems I might see with a wheelbase in this range. Regarding the rad - yeah - I was wondering about that too - I even started thinking that I could add some 3/16" copper plates (crossways) that would increase my surface area - I'll definately have to work it out before hand. Here's the front end with a super bell and buggy-spring front axle courtesy of another Hamb member. I had some thoughts of custom making the front axle too but I started to admire the polished tube axle/18" Radir spoke and skinny disc combos for a somewhat nostalgic drag feel. We'll see - I was also tossing around an idea of a custom twin I beam too but didn't think I could deviate from a traditional straight axle front.
I agree, with that innovative frame, the traditional dropped axle seems out of place. In design terms the traditional dropped axle mated with an unmodified frame, that is how the car was lowered. You have complete design freedom with your frame design, so I wonder if the dropped axle function could be more elegantly handled in the frame design.
Interesting idea. Maybe you have it covered, but it looks like you ought to have more lateral support in that area just forward of the floor pan. What's your estimated weight?
See, that's why all of this stuff is so interesting. I really like the idea of having a few key items remain as something identifiable, like the axle. It'll help give the whole project some familiarity. Kind of like that dragster Tom Hanna built, VERY familiar, which was the point, while using some very unusual structural pieces. I'm curious about the torsional strength in this ch***is setup too.
You could draw inspiration for the axle from the "traditional I beam", and your frame design.Reinvent the I-beam,familiar but different. --- I would also consider the weight of the frame,as well. Even if it is stiff enough,a bare frame that weighs 3000 lbs might not be ideal.Probably ride nice though. Another idea is to make the frame as hollow box sections, using thinner material.LOTS of fitting and welding,but stiffness to weight ratio would be much better.I saw pics of a mini truck ch***is done that way.The design was pretty interesting,but it needed help on the level of finish. --- The wheelbase seems reasonable. Just for personal taste,I would prefer a taller tire on back.
that computer design stuff is amazing. new shop is going to have computer loaded with it. question now is which computer program do you use?
One simple change would be to change the round holes in the axle to the trapazoidal shaped holes (spelling?). That matches your frame better esthetically.
Thanks for the input everyone. Here is an update on the 3d development, I've decided to "break" the frame design into 3 segments (front,mid and rear sections). This past week I've been working on the front sub-weldment section - all the plate thicknesses as shown are 1/4" - the front weldment including the two 1/4" thick front and mid-engine mount plates weighs 116 lbs. although this will change somewhat as things develop. Does that seem heavy? I'm trying to keep in mind the fact that I am approaching this rod with a minimilistic at***ude (no grille, hood, fenders or box) and I a can afford a few extra pounds in the ch***is. The frame is well boxed, refer to the dimensions and you will see that the section depth at the firewall is very deep (14") and tapers to just over 6" at the front - structually this design should be extremely solid. I haven't attempted my own straight axle design yet but I like the idea. <O</OI have changed the cut profile from simple triangles with parallel lines to angled lines with round holes - refer to previous posts for the old version. I'm not 100% sold on the new design - any opinions? With the new frame profiles the radius rods would change to mesh better than the ones shown here. I'll keep plugging away piece-by-piece as time allows and I'll see where I end up - this winter (which is my slower time) I will hopefully be able to source an engine/****** and rear-end and allow me to solidify the design and keep the "real-world" project moving forward as well.<O</O
Looks good to me. I'm guessing you will have to make the transmission tunnel into a backbone,to get the stiffness you need.And if the skin is applied to the bottom,it would look good too.
I'm using Solidworks 2006 at home and 2008 at work - although this makes things tricky since files created in newer versions cannot be opened on older ones - the other way around isn't a problem. To get around this I just save the files that I've choosen to do at work as parasolids and reopen them in 2006 - these models are then used as "reference" at home.
Ok it has been ages since I've posted but things have been outrageously busy. Although I haven't made any real progress on the frame/suspension design I have been tinkering with my cab model and I've lucked out and snagged a model of a 311 Hemi thanks to another Hamb member. I've doctored it up a little and modelled some Holley 94's and intake scoops for it. Popping the Hemi into the design has solidified my need to put a traditional Hemi in this thing - it looks killer!! Here are some updated pics.
awesome.. I have been using inventor, I can you export stl files?? if so.. could you (would you) be willing to share the cab with me???
1/2" thick frame walls? Seems like 3/16" at the most should do it. 1/8" would be my preference. "frame will be FEA'd" Say what? I translated most of what you had to say, but this one eludes me. Plain English please? Far as your cooling system goes, my 32 roadster has a transmission cooling system that consists of DeRale trans pan and a 2" OD front spreader that carries trans oil internally for additional cooling. The spreader has 120 square inches of cooling area and does a good job. If you're using thick walled copper tubing in back for a radiator see if you can't figure out the radiation area total for all tubes in a standard radiator for comparison. Coolant quan***y would help. Many engines from back in the day ran a total - engine and radiator - coolant quan***y of around 20 quarts. These figures are available in most Motors Auto Repair Manuals . . . the blue ones.
Finite Element ... something or other. Fancy computer stress ****yzing. Helps figure out what is likely to break, before it happens. The sort of thing that a lot of aftermarket companies don't do.
FEA = Finite Element ****ysis I'm really diggin' on the ch***is, kind of a steel plate monoque. I think you're going to find that the 1/2" plate is a bit excessive, but I can't imagine anything under say 1/4" being thick enough with those big tall sections like that. Thinner material may be strong enough, but with spans that long from flange to flange, I'd be worried about the web actually buckling instead of the flanges failing like would normally happen. Think slenderness ratio, only in a single plane this time. If you drop all the way down to 1/8", I'd imagine you'll need to break up the spans some with strategically placed gussets and flanges on the web. Are you an engineer? If not, you ought to be, that ch***is looks quite well though out, you're obviously proficient with CAD, and you seem to have a good grasp of manufacturing/metal working technology. I'm very interested to see how this one turns out.
Wow this is crazy! And I mean that in the best way. Something I would probably never own, but I admire your talent & design.
Sawzall, no problem, although I have never used the stl file format, Solidworks can output stl files so I'll see what I can do next week when I get back to the office. PM me your email address. C9 and anyone else confused regarding the acronym, FEA, I appologize, Coolhand is correct it stands for finite element ****ysis. It will allow me to simulate the input loads that the ch***is will be subjected to and ****yze weak points or overbuilt areas in the frame. With the model of the Hemi/****** I can soon layout the frame a little better achieving the "look" that I want, then I can go forward with things like trying different thicknesses of metal and slight frame design modifications to achieve the strength that the frame will require - some choices may be made purely for aesthetics and that is why my original layout was using 1/2" plate it just looked beefy and cool but that design has evolved to the current one where the front subframe is all 1/4" plate and it will continue to evolve. The final design will probably be 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" plus maybe the odd structural tube here and there but we'll see. C9, thanks for your reviewing your experience with a "spreader bar" oil cooler system, I have yet to give this concept any real thought although I have recruited the interest of a keen new collegue at my work to look into the feasibility - he's fresh out of university so maybe the necessary thermodynamics equations are a little fresher in his head then mine. Coolhand, thanks for the props, I am not an engineer, however, I graduated from college as a mechanical engineering technologist and I have spent the majority of my post graduate working career (10+ years) as a mechanical designer, as such I have racked up a few cad hours, mostly Solidworks. Thanks for the feedback.
some good questions.. I'd like to hear more about this project, as I have recently been thrust into teaching a pre engineering course, with a former engineer. His stress is upon planning out projects.. ****ysis etc.. my emphasis is on production.. given my teaching partners influence I have totally rethought my methods in the shop.. your project further refines my ideas.. I'd love to see the fea ON THIS .. i think ALOT of what I see built on here is overbuilt.. (which isnt bad) but I would really like to see what solidworks does to the design.. sawzall
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