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Technical 54 WCFB woes and my incompetence

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Gary Kitchens, May 19, 2023.

  1. Would a carburetor problem cause "timing breakup"?

    A Jegs article says weak valve springs will lower the mechanical ability of an engine to rev, and make popping noises. I don't know how to explain the difference in RPMs when it loses power.

    But, again, as I understand what you said, the primary circuit only allowed it to rev to 2700, then 3700 before it lost power. How do you explain that when you're mostly suspecting the secondary circuit?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
  2. kls50
    Joined: Sep 9, 2013
    Posts: 278

    kls50
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I glad you ruled out the timing chain and gears on that old engine
     
    427 sleeper and Budget36 like this.
  3. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 3,683

    twenty8
    Member

    It is useful to realize that everything suffers from wear in a high milage engine.
    It is very likely to be a combination of a few problems.
    That makes it harder to nail down, and why most people end up opting for a rebuild.
     
    427 sleeper and Mark Yac like this.
  4. I like the idea of testing the carburetor on the Ford 300, if plausible. Would the lower flow (CFM) prevent the 300 from revving higher than the 331 does? It seems that an adapter made from wood, plastic, or aluminum might work, and not take too long to make. And/or make an adapter for the 300 carb to the 331?
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2023
    SS327 likes this.
  5. tomcat11
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 1,141

    tomcat11
    Member

    That's quite true.
     
    twenty8 likes this.
  6. tomcat11
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 1,141

    tomcat11
    Member

    Gene-Koning provided an explanation in his post #256. See my post #286 I added another step.
     
  7. don colaps
    Joined: Nov 29, 2007
    Posts: 230

    don colaps
    Member

    I’m curious about the design of the ”****” carb adaptor.
     
  8. SS327
    Joined: Sep 11, 2017
    Posts: 3,882

    SS327

    That’s a great idea! It should still rev though, maybe not as fast. It would be a quick way to know if it is carb or not. That way you could for sure get past one issue and either pursue it or put it to bed. Call it a generic test bed!
     
    427 sleeper and sgtlethargic like this.
  9. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 37,449

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    as far as the mechanical advance specs that are listed in repair manuals. These specs are given in distributor degrees. because the engine turns twice for every 1 revolution of the dist, these figures should be doubled for engine degrees of advance. Also almost no one adds the vacuum advance numbers when figuring total advance. The vac advance is only really in play under light throttle no or little load cruising. when the throttle is wide open there is not enough vacuum to operate the vacuum advance... I see that you got 1000 more rpms when you removed the pertronix (those things are AWFUL) it would seem like you have or had a combination of problems. I too think that closing the plug gap to .025 or .030 has merit
     
    lippy, 427 sleeper, twenty8 and 7 others like this.
  10. KenC
    Joined: Sep 14, 2006
    Posts: 1,137

    KenC
    Member

    I think the red/bold above is the cause of a lot of misunderstanding and faulty communication in this thread.
    Some folks are quoting numbers seen with a timing light, some may be referring to numbers displayed on a distributor machine. They are not the same.
    Maybe we should specifiy crank or distributor degrees when discussing timing.
     
    rod1, warbird1, Tim and 4 others like this.
  11. Joe H
    Joined: Feb 10, 2008
    Posts: 1,855

    Joe H
    Member

    They beat me to it, Distributor degrees are half of what crank degrees are, so your 12 is really 24 at the crank.

    And your dual point distributor is designed for two sets. Each set should have 26-28 degrees of dwell and together should be 32-36 total. One set, as explained already is a little advanced, the other a little retarded. THEY ARE NOT a primary, and one back up set, they work together for a longer dwell time.

    To get the longer dwell, they doubled up two shorter sets and spaced them out. Depending on what set you are running, you are advanced or retarded.

    Does it matter all that much?

    You should be able to run one set as long as the timing is right and you have the correct dwell, it would be no different the compensating for a slack timing chain. It will run, but won't be ideal.
     
    Tim and Gary Kitchens like this.
  12. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 6,393

    sunbeam
    Member

  13. tomcat11
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 1,141

    tomcat11
    Member

    You both make excellent points I should have realized that. I completely left it out of the discussion. I will correct my posts for accuracy.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
  14. tomcat11
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 1,141

    tomcat11
    Member

    He claims the timing chain is in good condition. I don't buy it. He should rotate the crank one direction until the rotor turns , mark the dampner, rotate it back until it moves again, mark the dampner, count the crankshaft deg. and divide by 2. That should give an indication of how bad the chain is.
     
    Gary Kitchens and anthony myrick like this.
  15. garyf
    Joined: Aug 11, 2006
    Posts: 364

    garyf
    Member

    The entertainment boost has been excellent. I feel the outcome will be a loose threaded tip on a spark plug or something of that nature. The fix will never be posted and Mr Kitchen will vanish, never to be heard from again.
     
    XXL__ likes this.
  16. corncobcoupe
    Joined: May 26, 2001
    Posts: 8,723

    corncobcoupe
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Gary,
    With this many members you are bound to have many opinions of people trying to help you !
    If the fix will never be posted , that is sad as guys are / were trying to help you.
    You can't take anything personal and have a little thick skin.
    But - since the fix will never be posted - best I just close this now.
    Good luck Gary.
    Hope it works out for you and figure this elusive challenge out.
     
  17. OK thread open. First question although I am still going by the books. My part number is 1AZ – 4001C.

    This distributor is not listed in my book which goes 55 to 62. But I am setting it to the specifications in notation number three just like it says for all of those different distributor part numbers.

    My coil ohmed out to 1.1 and after a second or two 1.2 ohms, but more time on 1.1. My new backup coil is the same readings. The secondary winding is 5.15 ohm on both terminals, and the new coil is 8.58 ohms on the inner windings.

    hints or advice?
     
    don colaps and 41 GMC K-18 like this.
  18. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 37,449

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Here are the specs
    972039F0-1928-4EB8-A3EE-882C882A3B1D.jpeg
     
  19. Excellent so it’s exact same specifications that makes me happy
     
  20. What are the question. When his car came in the shop in the old school days to check the dwell did they remove the Insert a piece of paper and check it while I need to individual points or did they check the dwell altogether with both points still working to be between 32 and 36?
     
  21. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 13,576

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    You would set them separate.
     
  22. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 20,252

    Tim
    Member
    from KCMO

    I believe someone mentioned doing one set at a time a few pages back, I may be mis remembering though
     
  23. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 37,449

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    block them and dwell them separately, you can't adjust them without blocking one set
     
    SS327, Tim and 41 GMC K-18 like this.
  24. Dammit, I deleted the wrong post
     
  25. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 13,576

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Back in the days one would pull the cap to inspect it and all components inside the distributor.
     
    Moriarity likes this.
  26. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 20,252

    Tim
    Member
    from KCMO

    I get what you’re saying now. It would seem to me that if your total number was correct that them being lopsided or uneven between the two sets could affect how it acts?

    your getting 34 but maybe it’s 30 and 4 not 17 and 17.

    hopefully that made some since.

    To your question, I have no idea but pulling the cap off to look doesn’t seem like an extreme measure?
     
    Gary Kitchens likes this.
  27. OK deposit just got deleted had a great picture of my 34 1/4° of dwell which is plenty according to the book. My idol vacuum is 21, my idol timing is spot on 4°.

    And when I was asking earlier that I ignorantly the deleted, because my phone was in catching up to itself was.

    You guys are misunderstanding my question. When I go to Texas car to a shop to get checked out, they don’t bend over the car and go through the firewall and take apart. The distributor cap measure the gaps on the points they measure the dwell first and then if there’s issues with runnability, that’s when they check the points physically. I set both of my point gap .017 and I’m getting 34.25° I could drop them down to .016 and I could probably get 36° but I’m not really concerned about that until after I see some replies.
     
  28. You’re almost where I was talking about Tim lol I definitely don’t have 4° on one and 17 on the other. I know exactly where my points are set because I set them by hand with a distributor on the bench. And my dwell was 34 1/4 which should be sufficient once this car warms up. But I had to leave for a meeting and I’ll be back at seven.
     
    Tim likes this.
  29. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 2,920

    6sally6
    Member

    See post 305 (Sargentlethargic) !
    Ya need to figger-out how to 'prove' the carb ! Put it on another engine with a home-made adapter or something.
    Ya seem to have beat the electrical to death AND the timing chain question.
    It cranks very easily...it idles very nice.....it just won't take the fuel when its mashed.
    Sounds like a carb issue fer sure.
    6sally6
     
  30. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 6,856

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    I'm trying to figure how a timing chain affects TDC as you said Gary. Explain it. And 50deg total timing isWAY out of the ballpark .Lippy
     
    warbird1, 427 sleeper and 41 GMC K-18 like this.

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