Technical 54 WCFB woes and my incompetence

I think the ultimate conclusion here is that a Pertronix apparently can provide spark but not work correctly.........rather than it either works or it doesn't. We should also give credit to the fact that there are thousands of Pertronix units out there that do work perfectly and are trouble free for years and years. I'm glad that Gary was able to somewhat resolve his problem and come to an acceptable conclusion. Whether we like it or not, I don't think there are any cars manufactered in the last few decades that use points. That proves that electronic ignition is superior and more reliable. I remember replacing points in vehicles when I was a kid. They usually needed either replacement, adjustment, or filing ever so often. On the other hand I haven't had any ignition parts replacement in electronic ignitions on any newer vehicles. Even the spark plugs last 100,000 miles. So I give respect to the old points systems for being there when needed, but I think electronic ignitions also deserve some respect.
Its like the invention of the wheel...........its still a wheel but it definitely has been refined over the centuries. Where would we be if it hadn't been tweaked........

 

Well said!

 

Gary - thank you for posting the solution; always nice to get closure, especially on a thread as long as this one. Unfortunately, not everyone comes back to post the solution, and there is no closure.

Oh, and I will see your gramophone, and raise you one Victrola, and one breadboard (sorry Mark, but the devil made me do it!)

Jon

 

I just looked up this Petronas unit and it’s for a 68-73 Chrysler 340 12v Negative ground. How is it possible that it worked on 6v + ground?

 

It didn't. That's why you are here.

 

Yes, it did but only on the first 1/3 of the throttle lol

 

I know what a Victrola and a breadboard is and..........I didn't even have to look it up! HAHAHA! I'm so proud of myself!

 

I think it's funny that so many people feel that electronic ignition is so amazingly reliable. I was servicing vehicles quite awhile before mainstream electronic ignition was even a thing. While it's true that electronic ignition can go many miles without trouble, working in a dealership or busy repair center thru the 70s, '80s and '90s proved (to me at least) that they sure weren't trouble free, and not always that reliable. They also are not an upgrade that was to make the car more reliable, they were installed so that periodic adjustments were not needed to keep the dwell right, which in turn kept the timing right. That allowed vehicles emissions systems to stay within designed and mandated specs. But, other than for information sake we shouldn't be dwelling (get it ?) on electronic ignition.

As far as reliability goes, I have point and condenser ignition in all of my old cars and have yet to experience a failure because of them. Simple and dependable is great when you are a thousand miles from home.

 

The part number you read off (D57-22) is for a 12v negative ground Pertronix and somewhere you had a comment about the positive lead of the unit wired to ground.
https://www.jegs.com/i/PerTronix/751/1384/10002/-1#

You can't expect an electronic component to work properly if it's connected to a power source that's outside its intended parameters. And it really didn't work at all, that's why your customer brought the car to you and you spent a week fixing it.

I already explained what it is besides a simple switch. And no offense, but you "knowing" it's not multi spark carries very little weight.

 

No question, electronics can provide better/hotter, reliable ignition. My project is an old flathead 6 Mopar. With slant six electronic guts in the original distributor triggering a GM HEI module.
One of the reasons I chose that module is that it also includes dwell control. That and it is available everywhere and is cheaper than the box originally offered by Mopar.

In my mind the only reason to not buy a Pertronix is the lack of local replacement parts.

How much easier would this whole thing have been had a replacement been available in town! Pop one in and test.

On the dwell thing: If an ignition system uses a very low resistance coil some sort of dwell control is included, otherwise the coil would overheat at low speeds. Like what happened to the original Pertronix if the ignition was left on without the car running. Smoke.

 

Pay attention cl***, we are now, way past the Gramaphone, and the Victrola, and the Breadboard. The next vintage mechanical device, to be diagnosed and serviced, is the Galloway hit or miss engine, we will now address the proper calibration of the magneto system and the servicing of the
Thermo siphon/evaporation cooling system !
This is going to be fun, I ***ure you! Ask me how I know!
Thanks from Dennis.

 

With all the respect in the world for you veterans.

this might be appropriate

 

Oh my god that is effing hilarious. I love that.

I am a veteran, and I am not offended by it at all.

 

Do not let the magneto zap you. It is not comfortable lol.

 

Glad you got it sorted out Gary.
I think this whole debacle started because of your ***UMPTION that the distributor guy and the carb guy that worked on this car (prior to you coming here) knew what they were doing, and were correct in their actions. Since you took them at face value, the help you were offered here seemed wrong to you. I learned a long time ago that it's always best to recheck someone else's prior work before accepting it as fact. I hope you p*** your findings and solutions on to those two "experts".

 

I wonder how much some extra wear in the distributor shaft and bushings affects dwell?

For most of us poor saps, perfection is highly overrated!

 

There’s no slop in the bushings that’s for certain

 

I have an off topic 2018 pick up and have installed an Edge Monitor which I like for towing. You can show 11 different “gauges” on the monitor screen and can choose from over 30 since it plugs into the OB11. One I choose is ignition advance and have seen 50*+ on many occasions. One thing is shows is when taking your foot off the throttle it goes to zero….

 

After all the advice you got, you only checked the part number today? Man, you certainly were blinkered.

 

Original installer may installed incorrectly boxed unit, not the first time that's happened.

 

Success !!!!

an easy solution that made you go round and round and round .

as you stated UMP-teen times everything is like it should be , why is this thing running like **** !!!!!!!

you found it , we all ***ume new parts are good parts , unfortunately this statement is never true .


Well it’s done now , put your shirt back on , step away from the corner and wipe those tears away !

 

I would like to properly thank everyone who posted advice on this problem. None of it was off target. All of the things mentioned could have been a contributing factor. We have some very smart guys here, and I learn a lot by reading every post in threads like this. Thanks, I am a little more educated now.

 

I posted a picture of the things part number movers two days ago, but I had already decided to try the points because it was a much cheaper alternative

 

Regarding the engine running better, I think that all that follows applies:

1. The wrong Pertronix parts were on the engine.

2. This wasn't a case of faulty Pertronix parts.

3. It seems that the carburetor work and the ignition work overlapped (two variables; not isolated), so I think that the wrong Pertronix parts would have to be installed again, if one wanted to try to check if the carburetor work made a difference.

4. If one wanted to: Would installing the correct Pertronix parts (I'd check the application with Pertronix) result in the engine running the same as it is, worse than it is, or (possibly) better than it is?

 

Oh damn lethargic, I have felt exactly the same as your statement since I bothered to look up this pertronix units proper application by part number, because I wish I have been a believer that a pertronix either works or doesn’t work, and I let my ignorance overcome common sense. But I am definitely not going to step back and do this all over again….

if it was my car, yes I would but it’s not my car

 

One question, to all that participated in this thread.

Taking into consideration, that the engine has high miles, and that there was a certain amount slop in the timing chain that was discovered.

Wouldn't it have been a good idea, to replace the older timing chain with a new one while there was great opportunity to do that?
Just curious.
Thanks from Dennis.

 

Well if you look at it that way, why didn’t I simply just tell the lady the day she dropped it off, and it was running okay, that it simply needed a complete rebuild?

Anyone care to guess how many days or weeks or years that it will continue to run since it’s got 12-14 degrees of wear on the chain and more than 15% compression loss between cylinders?

Any guesses?

 

I suspect the loose timing chain will be an issue in the future. The process used to evaluate the number of degrees of slop leaves a lot of room for incorrect numbers, there probably isn't 12 degrees of slop, but there is much.
That timing chain could be a problem in another 15,000, 20,000 miles (that would be a Chrysler timing change average life expectancy, 115K-120K miles), which realistically could be several years down the road. This is not an interference motor, so when it fails, replacing it and the gears will put the car back on the road.

Someone asked about worn dist shaft bushing effecting the dwell. Most certainly any slop in the the dist shaft spinning will effect the dwell, but the dist in this car was changed early in this adventure, maybe even before it began here.

I'm happy to hear the car is fixed. I'm happy Gary learned a few things along the way, and I'm happy others did as well.
Time to lock it again and move on.

 

Gary gets it. How much crow does he have to eat?