Technical 54 WCFB woes and my incompetence

Gary, unfortunately there are two factions on the Hamb when it comes to ignition selection and many other things. I think there has been some good attempts to help and some frustration resulting as well.

Not to be argumentative, but earlier I mentioned that Pertronix has 3 models, and that the base model did not work with a low amp coil or reverse polarity. Someone else said they believed that you have the base model.
I'm wondering why the base model does not operate the same as the 2 & 3 level models.

It is possible that your jets are not flowing sufficient fuel to support higher rpms. If so, it would seem that if you held the throttle wide open and the engine is at its limited rpm wot.......then a spray bottle with gasoline sprayed over the carb should cause the engine to increase its rpms. (Be very careful when spraying gas and have a hose or extinguisher handy. A friend of mine spent a lot of time recoving from a mistake)

If spraying the fuel increases rpm, then I think you have a fuel problem.

If spraying does not increase rpm, then maybe the carb does not flow enough air (probably not but had to say that)

Next would be the ignition.

In my lifetime I have seen strange things that were never expected cause problems. Maybe the cam lobes are worn. Maybe ignition isn't advancing as far as someone thought. Maybe exhaust has a restriction. Sometimes its just the goldarndest things that someone never expects.

That said, I'd still like to know whats different between Pertronix 1 and 2/3 as for not working with reverse polarity. Hope we can collectively stumble onto an answer.

 

okay. You’re both saying a new set of points and condenser will in essence make the system lugs burn the two mixtures differently because it’s coming through points rather than the pertronix that is possibly struggling. Okay. I’ll do it. Points and condenser ordered, calling other sources to see if I can get them today.

thank you.

 

pertronix has a controlled dwell, no adjustments.
The ignition does not push out more voltage with higher rpm demands. The spark is as strong at idle as it is at 3000 rpm’s. Or am I incorrect in that? I’m thinking I’m correct, but I could be wrong.
This my persistence to disregard the coil and pertronix as the culprit.

 

Look into GMs big cap HEI they came out with in the mid 70’s, seems they got it right (ugly as all sin) but works as intended.
Jim Linder (ignition guy, now retired as I recall) would convert points ignitions with a Chrysler reluctor and pickup fed in/out of a GM module.

 

No one is saying points burns fuel better than the set up you have.
Just that your set up may possibly be defective.

 

Coil feed voltage test for those of you that believe there is supposed to be a voltage reduction to the 6v coil from the ignition switch. Performed just now.

in all fairness the feed wire bringing power to the coil could’ve been changed 30 or 40 years ago but it’s got the original cloth wrapping so I don’t believe that’s the case but there’s the voltage results right here below

first pic: KOEO
no pump crank up and start
second, KOER idle
Third pic KOER 2500 rpm’s
4th pic back to idle KOER after two minutes of idling.

 

Well consider what goes in, may not come out properly.
It’s been mentioned (I’ve no experience with Pertronix) that there are different systems to use.

 

I agree. Now how do I measure the other side of the Tronics unit the one that’s going through the center coil wire? I don’t have an oscilloscope or all these fancy things from the 50s.

 

NO! That is NOT what we are saying. You are Not comprehending what is being said. And what about the 40+ total deg. of timing? You gonna leave that in there? WTF! At least your finally getting rid of that Pertronix! Now maybe you'll get somewhere. Please don't quote anymore of my posts.

 

no one said you need a voltage drop to run your 6v set up
I think folks only said that 6v resistors existed in some OE applications and that if yours had one then that could be a possible issue

 

Petronix igniters 1-2-3 just for reference


wouldn’t hurt to verify the part number on the module

 

While you're waiting on points, try this:
Sit in car . Run it up on the primaries to where it won't rev any more. Hold it there for about 15 seconds. Cut it off.
Pull the first two plugs on either head. Let us know what you find.
Should see : Dark, black = ignition, weak, no spark
White, like new = lean
* Not the definitive test but something to try.

 

Who has set point gap using a dwell meter?
In addition to being a switch, the Pertronix has the job if determining how long the switch stays closed.
We don't seem to have a way to know what the dwell is at great running idle and poor running 2800/3800 rpm.

Also, do we know the rpm at which the factory rated horsepower was advertised when it was new?

 

OK folks I’m getting what you’re flinging out.

WHAT ALL IN TIMING ARE YOU SUGGESTING? You freaked at a total of 43 degrees for 2500 on up.

my base is 4 degrees. So what all in timing is your 331 running?

the quote ****on is there to keep context. But if you can’t handle me doing it, I’ll stop.

so my motors manual 1954 said base timing 4 degrees. Distribution but or specs state 1 degree @375 rpm. Full advance 14 degrees @2050 rpm. This particular distributor came with 11.5 degrees advance. Book says 5.25” to start plunger, 11degrees total @17” vacuum.

stated as per the motors manual mechanical specs 1953-1962

so full mechanical advance in the book of 12 plus full vacuum of 11.5 and the 4 initial means it should be spot on at 27°. Is that why you went Caplock crazy on my 43° of timing?

factory rated horsepower for the 1954 New Yorker with the four barrel 331 is 235 hp at 4400 RPMs 330 foot pounds of torque at 2600 RPMs with a 7.5 to 1 compression ratio.

 

“””””””With the use of modern electronics, there is no reason to be concerned with setting the dwell of an ignition system, however the concept of dwell time still takes place in the coil. It’s just not something you need to worry about thanks to Pertronix Performance Brands. With the largest selection and most knowledgeable staff, PerTronix Ignition is your one stop shop.”””””

Maybe, just maybe, my pertronix is working fine but it’s dwell control is messed up, and the coil isn’t allowed saturation time.

that makes perfect sense if it’s possible. And that gives the issue an actual Label, rather than the generic “oh it’s messing up” statement.
Now I can start figuring what could cause the pertronix units dwell control to fail while waiting for the points to show up. And oh ****, I gotta buy TWO sets of points, this was originally a dual point’s distributor wasn’t it?
The distributor part number is shown here

 

All my hemi junk in the shop has dual points
Just some old shop manual info if someone needs it

 

I’m using that same manual and I’m headed over to a town about 30 miles away to pick up a pair of points and a condenser

 

Just some FYI, new condensers are a **** shoot.
You would be far ahead to find some new old stock.

 

Thank you for that information. I still have the condenser in my dual points 413. It will work. And it will save me a couple of bucks

 

I'm sure we have a set for your application.

 

Excellent if my condenser doesn’t work, I’ll get a hold of you

 

The dwell issue is why some of us are recommending the removal (or replacement w/new petronics). You keep saying its simply a switch without considering the open/close duration and timing. Others stated there's more there than a simple switch.

My reasoning for the suggestion vs richening the carb more is this: It seems counter-intuitive to have black plugs and add fuel! Black plugs means unburned fuel, maybe from lack of adequate igition, but certainly not lack of fuel.

edit to add: I should have mentioned earlier that you can measure dwell even without points. It's just the degrees rotation between switch on/switch off. Maybe if I had suggested that it would have helped.

 

Well, when I arrived at Napa 30 miles away, they only had one ******* set of points. So it looks like I am going to be ****** my 413 for the other half of the points.

and you are correct I should’ve insisted upon reading the dwell, but I already have the pertronix unit out and I’m heading back to my shop to fit these points into the distributor

 

Will this distributor perform just fine on a single set of points? Or do you both have to be installed for correct operation? This is my first dealing with doing points in a duel points distributor. My 413 ran just fine. I never had to play with it in a small amount of time but I drove it so there was no need to learn it

 

I don't have the dual points answer, but I have dual points question.
1. With dual points, are they phased so the second set closes before the first set opens, allowing a longer dwell?
2. OR, does the distributor have only four lobes, so each set of points cycles half as often in one distributor (2 crankshaft) rotation(s)?

Someone here should be able to help with the question of using one set of points in the 331 Hemi dual point distributor. Is that ok?

 

Eight. Lobes they both open coincidentally to each other at the same time I know that much at this point by looking at my 65. Knowing my luck the 54 will be different

 

I’m pretty sure all of you **** talkers would’ve had this thing running like a dream by now or sold it to an Iraqi out of disgust. But I’m here to learn more about this. Not just to flap my gums. That’s what facebox is for.

 

You can run one set but set the dwell to a single point spec.

 

Oh my.

 

28 on most cars I’ve done. But will double check the motors book