Technical 62 Impala wagon - Stay with drum or switch to disc?

I'd go for the disc brake upgrade, even though I've driven drum brake equipped cars many miles with no issues whatsoever. IF... and ONLY IF... the drum brakes are properly sized, they've been adequate for most of the driving conditions I've experienced. But with the skimpy 9-inch drums the factory put on my own Chevy II, I had a couple of near-misses with errant wildlife. That's convinced me a disc brake upgrade would be smart so it's getting done.
As mentioned, it's an individual decision depending on your driving style and needs. In today's traffic though, it seems you need to arm yourself with every advantage you can.

 

Some of the disk brake kits I've seen are sketchy as fuck, often using the drum spindles and then not having enough length, so the center nut won't fully engage, or using bracketry that looks home-made, and then a mix of off-the-shelf parts, often from late 70's or 80's cars that might not be available in the future.

For an Impala, there's almost certainly a well-engineered setup available. But there's no way I would consider every disk brake setup superior to every drum.

 

good condition stock drums are ok IF you can lock them up and stop straight. (of course you stop shorter if you don’t lock them up.)
lots of mountain grades or towing might be a consideration.

 

Care to tell us what kits those are? I've yet to see a front disc brake kit for an X-frame Chevy that used S10/G-body brakes.

Mine uses the big car calipers and Trans Am rear rotors.

 

I just want to be able to stop as quickly as the guy doing a panic stop in front of me................

 

The only reason why I installed disc brakes on the Ranch Wagon is because rebuilding the drums would cost a lot more than the disc brake swap, plus I went with larger brakes than was originally on the car.

If most of the brake components are in good shape the drum brakes will give you good service.

BTW, I traveled thousands of miles in my dad's 62 Impala wagon and the drums never failed him or me. HRP

 

I used my dad's '68 Impala wagon to chase parts in my youth. It had a 327 and a TH400, the car was quite the rocket. That always stopped well with the power drums.

 

I put disc brakes on all four corners of my 62 wagon, but then again I also put a Ford nine inch in it and a 550hp/ trq. big block in it. My thought is more go, more whoa.

 

I fell into the "disc" trap on 3 that I owned. Guy asked me the same question of going to disc for a cruiser-told him no, do the drums. He did, I drove it and was Pissed for a week thinking of all the $$ I spent not to mention wheels and the other stuff that goes for discs.

 

When disk brakes were new on cars, organic-asbestos composition disk brake pads were in use and also used to eliminate brake squeal, they would fade on panic stops and mountain braking. If semi metallic brake shoes were used back in the day instead of asbestos,how would they compare to stopping with todays metalic and different composition made disk brakes?
I dont see many older cars converted to disk brakes, that have also added anti lock brake system that would eliminate the wheel lock up on hard braking

 

The difference between brake requirements "back in the day" and "nowadays" is that we drive much faster than we used to, and all the vehicles around us can usually stop much quicker than we used to.......the frame of reference is not just how the pedal feels to your foot, it's can you stop as quickly as the car ahead of you. The cost of your braking system will be a lot higher if you can't stop quickly enough.

 

Crashing is traditional.

 

Even if you do upgrade your brakes to discs, remember that the moron next to you talking on their phone that swerves into your lane in front of you because you left enough room for safe stopping likely still has better brakes than you do.

Why is it the brakes and wiring seem to be the places where guys try to 'save money'? Crash and burn....

 

Agreed.

It makes no sense to me that disc brakes that will make for safer stopping (although possibly not to standards of modern cars) in modern traffic on a car where you can't see the brakes anyways is a hill to die on.

 

My uncle "left enough room" in front of him, riding his brand new Harley. He used to teach bike safety,
thought he was being safe. But he hadn't driven in heavy city traffic for many years. Around here now,
if you leave a gap, GUARANTEED someone will fill it. Traffic slowed down, then someone filled that
space in front of him, and everyone stopped. OH OH !! Broke his leg, shattered his ankle, wrote the bike off.
2 years later, had to have his leg reset.

 

I remember when I was young and my wife and I were returning home from a party late one night. In the lane next to us and maybe one car length ahead was a motorcycle with a girl on the back. Suddenly we heard tires squealing as a car in that next lane had locked it's brakes and was sliding toward the back of the motorcycle.......

The riders heads swiveled around but it was too late and there was no time to react..........


The car came to a halt about 1 foot behind the motorcycle.

 

Tail lights matter.

 

In racing it required rules to make safety equipment mandatory

Racer's would rather spend $$$ of "go fast shit" than Helmets, Seatbelts, HANS, Firesuits, etc etc
All that stuff was unnecessary because accidents only happened to other drivers .

Brakes get a Free Pass though, because good brakes can improve lap times

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@MikeC62

I am all for safety improvements, but sometimes people make things worse .
You really need to know what you're doing.
That is why I always recommend copying a factory upgrade [the factory did the math and engineering for you]

I had a young friend that "improved" the brakes on his E30 BMW with huge 6 pot Brembos and Rotors.
With sticky tyres it would damn near stand on the grille.
The 1st outing in traffic on a wet day he rear-ended another car because he basically only had 2 wheel brakes with compromised traction
The Front /Rear bias was wrong for the rate of deceleration.

Remember this brakes don't stop the car!!! The Tyres Do! [brakes only remove kinetic energy]

 

I live in the Catskill Mountains (Which are just the northern end of the Appalachian Mountiams) of upstate NY , my father and I rebuilt the built the brakes my 53 Chev. stock on the front, 57 Chevy rear with stock drums on the back.
New wheel cylinders, hardware, cleaned/lubed the adjusters, hoses, machined the drums and keep them adjusted the car stops great!

I have driven interstates, sometimes in heavy city traffic never an issue. I have even had to make a panic stop or two, which brings up a interesting point how often are you making panic stops?

If drums are so bad and not suited for high performance, how is it possible that Jim Fugle is consistently the fastest/winningest car in the Mohawk Valley Vintage Dirt Modified Antique Class. betting the disc brake regularly?

In fact the drum brake cars end up in victory lane far more often than the disc cars!


Note- the win stickers on both sides of the hood!

 

It’s really not that big of a deal. This is a soapbox issue. Conversations can approach an alternate reality.
Whatever you do make sure the system is fully functional and tip top.
A properly functioning simple system is better than a complex system that’s poorly engineered, poorly installed and does not really work.

 

Now tell us about all the drum brake F1, NASCAR Cup, IndyCar, IMSA, FIA, WOO sprint and so on cars.

 

Too many variables there to say that the difference between him and his car winning is because of the drum brakes. Do all the cars with drum brakes always finish at the front ? Do all cars with disc brakes always avoid wrecks ? All someone can do is to try to put the brake on their car that they believe provides the best braking.......and thats generally going to be a disc set up. Nostalgia has its place in the car world, but it should never come ahead of safety.

 

How many Nit-Wit's have you seen with modern, late model car's, with 4 wheel disc anti-lock brake system's, piled up on the left shoulder of the highway? Plenty, I'm sure... They STILL over drove their idiot proof vehicle's to the point of critical destruction! The problem isn't the car or the system's it's equipped with, it's the Dumb Ass behind the wheel that is the problem. If you drive defensively, in the right, lane at the speed limit or possibly 5 to 10 MPH over, there shouldn't be an issue. The Asshole's will be passing you in the left lane's, leaving plenty of distance between you and catastrophy. The brake system you have is one of the best designed drum brake system's of the era, they'll stop those land yacht's on a the proverbial dime when properly maintained, especially with semi-metallic shoe's. You just have to pay a little more attention to your surrounding's. I'm not saying that disc brake's aren't better, because they are. I'm just saying that you're not going to crash and burn because you have drum brakes. Why are you in such a hurry to get there anyway? It's not about the destination... It's about the journey. JMO

 

It doesn't matter what lane you drive in, how slowly you drive, or how many precautions you take..............there will be times when everyone has to react and steer and or stop as quickly as they can. Been there and done that many many times. Sometimes it was my fault sometimes it wasn't. It's just the Law of Averages that if you drive long enough, you will have to deal with situations you could not anticipate or did not anticipate.

 

While I can't outright disagree with that, it can be easier said than done. And may or may not get you the improvement you want.

The evolution of factory disc brakes from the mid-'60s forward is illuminating. Initially, Detroit went with multi-piston fixed (non-floating) calipers. These generally worked very well, but there were issues. First, they didn't like excessive disc runout, so careful maintenance of the front wheel bearings was needed. Loose bearings would bring 'shudder' and uneven rotor wear. Second, they were more costly to make and service. With a few exceptions, these were gone by '68.

In their place was the now-ubiquitous single piston floating caliper. Far cheaper to manufacture and more tolerant of disc runout, there were some teething problems but most were worked out. But as far as braking performance, these were a step backwards. Still better than drums, but not by as much. For about 25 years, that's what you found under most cars. The aftermarket adopted these for inexpensive 'conversion kits' with varying degrees of success. But race cars and very high-performance cars stuck with multi-piston calipers.

We've now come full circle. Multi-piston calipers in both floating and fixed types have reappeared as OEM for better braking performance. Unfortunately, the 'budget' kits haven't kept pace with nearly all still using the inferior single-piston designs. And very few of these newer brakes will easily retrofit onto HAMB-era cars. As far as 'copying' an OEM system onto an older car, that can be a crapshoot as very few HAMB-era cars were ever available with factory discs.

 

I have done many power brake/dual stage master cylinder conversions to drum brake cars over the years.

Never once have I had an unhappy customer with the stopping performance results, or have ever been notified he couldn't stop fast enough to avoid collision with that modern ABS brake car.

Even with pre ABS disc brake design cars, they can't stop as good, so what's the point to spend a lot of time and money for a disc brake conversion on on a non canyon carving type of car.

I have had conversions done that have come to me due to it won't stop for shit, due to crappy conversion kits from E-Bay with jippo brake pads or flat out installed wrong.
Maybe with ultra high end disc brake conversion stuff, might brake comparable.
Maybe with factory style 70s,80s stuff you just smash your car a little less than with drums.

Most drivers of vintage stuff realize there are limitations of the car, compared to modern stuff that have assholes behind the wheel, and drive them with that in mind.

Wonder how many 4 wheel disc brake 32 Fords there are with ABS, so they can stop before hitting something.

Bill

 

We learned that lesson years ago with fixed 4 or 6 pot calipers [they were susceptible to "pad knock-off"]
In road racing cars the fix on the front was "stub axle stiffeners" so they wouldn't flex.
The irony was on my Lotus Cortina [which was bad for pad knock-off] I switched to a smaller bore quick uptake M/C from a Mercedes. [the stepped bore fixed the pad knock of issue]

Rear disc conversions were the worst because the rear axles have too much end-play, so we used floating rotors.
Full floating axles were the best [nothing needed]
But the easiest was the simple single pot floating caliper [even my factory built Mustang race car retains these on the rear]

People misunderstand the clamping pressure of single pots [or twin piston "side by side" PBR calipers.]
A 2" single pot caliper has exactly the same clamping pressure and fluid displacement as a caliper with 2 x 2" opposing pistons [the floating cylinder and bridge act like an opposing cylinder]

Copying an OEM system is a crapshoot ,but you need to choose your cars wisely. A 62 impala can vulture the brakes from a 70 or later Monte' [or better still C3 Corvette]
Whereas most "one size fits all kits" use G Body rotors which are 10.5" diameter [hardly an improvement] even though they advertise them as 11" rotors
The biggest issue is the Caliper mounting brackets [usually laser cut steel] These are waiting for pad knock off!
They then require 10.5" rotors which increase track width and scrub radius up to 1" each side .

I would rather have a factory forged knuckle and caliper brackets over any dichromate plated homemade P.O.S




Also beware of aftermarket "drop spindles" [even from reputable vendors] most a Cast Nodular Iron whereas the factory used forgings.
I consider these ^^^^ a bigger crapshoot than factory brakes

I would rather stick to factory set up on a heavy impala [it'll never become a Porsche 911]

 

This is another area where people don't use their brains. It's not a simple "one is better than the other". It has absolutely nothing to do with "today's traffic conditions" and the laws of physics magically changing over time somehow.

Drums have more surface area for friction material than the majority of drum brakes. Take a look at a shoe vs a pad. So on paper, drums have MORE STOPPING ABILITY than discs. The issue arises when you throw in varying driving conditions. A drum is going to hold heat in the brake assy. A disc has all the friction area exposed and cooling fins in between the two sides. Brake fade is going to happen quicker and stick around longer once you get to that point with a drum brake. It will also hold water longer and require more attempts to dry out before you have brakes again. Disc brakes are simply more IDIOT PROOF. If you are road racing you need brakes that shed heat so discs are a better option. If you are tooling around town within the limits of the car there is absolutely nothing wrong with drum brakes. Semi trucks towing 80,000 pounds use...DRUM BRAKES. The stock original 11×2.5" drums on my 59 will panic stop that 4500lb land barge just fine. How many times do you need to panic stop within a few minutes? More than once and you really need to learn how to drive your car instead of blaming the brakes. So heat isn't going to be an issue under regular driving conditions. Driving through the mountains? Use engine braking and some common sense. The only reason people "need" discs on their stock daily driver is because they are too stupid to operate their equipment properly. I said what I said, and this is from experience actually driving these old cars in "todays driving conditions" instead of listening to BS.
OK I'm done with my rant, have a great day.

 

The real question is not braking power/ability. The biggest advantage of disc brakes over drum brakes is "pedal feel".
It is much easier to avoid lockup under hard braking with discs. There is more "feel". Drums are more likely to lock.
Avoiding lockup means maintaining much more control in an emergency situation, and that's a real good thing.

 

Wow, no.

Discs are far better than drums, in all measurable aspects. This is long-settled science, and not open for debate.

There exists literally hundreds-of-thousands of pages of data that emphatically prove your assertions wrong.

It has everything to do with today's traffic conditions.

There are more vehicles on the road today than in any time in US history.

Of all of the cars and light truck on the road, the average vehicle is 12.

Every single one of them has far better brakes than a HAMB-era vehicle, without exception. All can stop fat shorter than any drum brake car.

That's also not up for debate.

Drums on semi trucks are an apples to doughnuts comparison. Of course TEN gigantic drums can stop a semi. The equivalent braking surface to weight ratio cannot be produced with a drum on any car or light truck.

Not sure if you have noticed, but drums are fast disappearing on semis, too?

Why?

Because discs are better on all counts.

Again, you are arguing against the Laws of Physics, and long settled science.

Blaming people for brake inadequacy, and inferior technology is just crass.