Dennis, I responded earlier but my response disappeared. I do not believe it is the radiator for the flower pedaled 1920 and 1921 cars, possible but to me the size is too small. Most radiators of the 300" era are somewhat the same size, not exact but close. The size of the car in my avatar is 18 1/2' by 29" and I would assume the 1916 Frontenacs are close in size. The flower pedal radiator 20/21 cars I would assume are a bit wider than this particular radiator and maybe a bit taller. The emblem is correct and similar to other 1920s Frontenacs (T-based). At 15 1/2" wide and 25" tall I would guess (and it is strictly a guess) that it may have been on one of the T-based Fronties of the twenties. These cars had a much more compact radiator area as you can imagine with a small four between the rails. The 1920 Monroe engine that Ed Roy restored is also quite narrow and I hope I am wrong and it turns out to be one of the 20/21 radiators. From my perspective it looks close but not exact to Gaston's car. I have looked thru what few pictures I have of the twenties and have come up dry. If you look though at the Fronties you may see smaller style radiators. In any event it is a great find and you are the keeper of a Frontenac radiator something that only a few can claim. A great piece. Hopefully this will inspire some with good photo collections to come up with the smoking gun. Now you may have to come up with an old Frontonac conversion and try to put a car together. Years ago I put an ad in Hemmings seeking anything in the way of 1916 Frontenac. I had several people call and ask what I had and I told them I had nothing but was looking. Chuck Davis was one of the guys that called and it was the first of several times we spoke. He had looked for the same and the only thing he ever found was a portion of the cylinder head area he said he used for a paper weight. I even tried to buy that from him but he laughed and said he wouldn't part with it. Chuck did though have some 1920 Frontenac engine stuff which he also wouldn't sell. I believe his estate sold it to Speedy Bill. Congrats and lets hope there is some good luck intracking down exactly what it is-Jim
I appreciate all the information guys,.. Jim, do you know what size wheels were on the Gaston wreck ?, in the picture, the wheel and the back of the radiator are in close proximity (to try to calculate), if this radiator is to small we can eliminate it from that car all together,..... Since I am new to all of this, I went back outside and took the shell off to take more pictures of it in detail,... when I figure out how I will be glad to post a link to all the uploaded pictures,..... a point of interest is that the tabs in the back of the radiator and the holes in the front of the shell are inline with each other,...... Thanks again for all the info,.....
Dennis, I am not sure of the size of the wheels but if I had to guess I would say they are 24". Guys I believe were still running the 32 x 4 and 33 x 4 1/2 tires depending on the track in 1920 I believe. -Jim
Contact CORNGROWER32 on here, he or some of his Buddies (ZAKIRAS) may know or shed some light on someone who does... Good luck interesting piece..
A little piece of racing and automobile history for sure! All you can do is keep up the forensics of the old piece I suppose? Cars like these made Indy what is was!
Is this not from a Durant/Dominion Motors Canadian Frontenac? Same logo... There was a '33 sitting at a shop not far from where I'll be next week. I'll stop and shoot a pic or two.
I am coming up empty through my photo files, and many cars ran obscuring protective screens. Seeing it was a labeled "Frontenac" part, I consulted a reprint of the Fronty catalogs in the "Model T Ford in Speed & Sport". The radiators are depicted by drawings, and are not conclusive.For what it's worth here are in order, the "early" and "late" catalog entries:
Note that both entries mention the "Fedder" core. This may be a lead, and compare the construction as shown.
Here is a Fronty badge they used to sell several years ago-repops for Fronty Fords and here is the radiator badge on the shell in question-Jim
Fedder's still exists, primarily making a/c units. They were a major manufacturer at the time of automotive radiators.
That radiator cap is the size of an INDY car of the day, the Fronty/Ford dirt cars used a much smaller one.
A couple other things to point out,.... the bottom tank configuration with the large drop to the center and the sealed hole for the crank is nothing I have seen offered in the after market stuff that I have been able to find. this radiator for its size is really stout,.. I am guessing it weighs between 45 to 55 LBS. When you look at this radiator and shell close up you can see its a hand made piece,... can anybody get a sharper scan of the picture of the 1920 Gaston wreck where the radiator is lying upside down in front of the car,....... I would greatly appreciate it. ( I know I am probably dreaming,... but like I said, when you look at the drivers side in both pictures they are both bent in the same place, all the brackets are in the same locations, and even the mounting bolt on the drivers side is broke off on both radiators)
Ryan, Thank you for starting the HAMB! Were else could we all get together and try to put the pieces of this puzzel together? I was just thumbing through the 1919 INDY 50 program and found a quarter page ad from Art Chevrolet, were the brothers getting along, or did they have several shops in Indy? This shop was at 719 North Illinois street in Indianapolis, and the ad read. The most complete Auto Repair shop in town. General repair shop, machine shop, electric shop, paint shop, RADIATOR SHOP, with expert mechanics. We re-build and re-corer any make or style of radiatior. First class repair work "We Know How"
Lovin' this thread. Man, I've learned more hear on the HAMB than the previous 5 years of looking at magazines and books!
and here is a photo of Canada Quebec City Upper Town Fairmont Le Chateau Frontenac Hotel Lobby Crest Griffin.
Dennis, I looked thru my stuff and could not find a clearer picture. It does look similar that is for sure. I hope you can come up with a clear shot. Would be great if it is off of one of the 20/21 cars. The size throws me but it is possible.-Jiim
If it is one of the 1920-21 cars with the aero nose there would be no reason for it to have a perfect shell. It looks like it was plated or made of German silver and the inner mounting brackets are rusted steel. Do you think it was ever repaired or changes for use on a later car?
I don't believe the Crest is the clue as it was used on all Frontenac cars whether they were racers or domestics. I think the real clue is the shape of the radiator, specifically the dip in the the center with the crank hole. If we can find when that was used it would possibly tell us the rest of the story.
You have a good memory,..... I think I tracked down the original engine in north east Ohio, and I am trying to hammer out a deal on it (not 100% sure its the original engine, but the similarities are uncanny,.... Ha ha that seems to be the story of my life here lately ),.... I am actually uncomfortable to start on it, how much is "to much" in restoring a car like that ? Well I guess thats another topic for another thread,.... looks like we need to track this radiator down,..... And I just wanted to thank you all for all your interest and input,... I would really like to reunite this radiator with it's history,... Thanks everyone !,..... looks like I got to keep digging.
I met Harry Robtoy back in about 1971 at his shop in Capac, MI. He had a lot of "good old stuff" then-I wonder if the Frontenac radiator was there then? At that point, Harryr had possession of the old Ira Hall (driven) Fronty D.O. sprint car. The car had belonged to Homer Allen of Van Wert, OH for many years and had housed a 200" Miller Marine while the Fonty resided in the basement awaiting a rebuild. Harry and Homer "campaigned" the car in AARA events. Harry was one of (if not THE) founder of the Winchester Old Timers Club.l
Well,. I am still playing detective, but I am way behind the curve because like I stated in the first thread, I dunno nutt'in bout Frontenac's or the Chevrolet brothers racing,.... but I am trying to learn,..... I did run across a New York Times article dated Nov. 26, 1920 about the fatal crash of Gaston Chevrolet in California,.... and thought some of you might be interested in reading it. http://carsandracingstuff.com/library/articles/2045.php
I wish I knew. The ownership of the car became quite "cloudy" before the Fronty ever got restored/reinstalled. As best I remember, Homer repo'd the car with the Miller still in it. When he died, his daughter disposed of everything-in a manner that caused a bit of rancor and ill feelings as she ignored some agreements made between her dad and some folks who thought they had first rights of refusal.
Dennis, I have been a huge Frontenac fan and Chevrolet brother fan for years. Here is a wall in my shop with a print of the two cars just before the crash, a Beverly Hills poster and two original LA papers, one on the accident (you can see the pic of Gaston on the front page) and the other article is when the new track at Beverly Hills ran its inaugural event. Where have you seen the picture of the wreck with the radiator? I have a copy lens which is pretty good for photographing up close. If I could find a good photo I may be able to blow it up. I have pictures of the wreck but can't put my finger on the one with the radiator. Also If I can find a frontal view of the flower pedal front I may be able to scale it, if I can also find the exact tire/wheel size. I believe they are probably 24" wheels but that is a guess. Documenting this stuff is fun but frustrating. The closer you get to finding the smoking gun the more the naysayers put down their whiskey long enough to throw cold water on your theories. Still entertaining though-Jim
Thanks Jim I really value your input as well as everyone else's,.... the picture I keep referring to was originally posted by "The37Kid" on the second page of the first thread I posted weeks ago,.... I don't know what book it came from but you can see the bottom of the radiator lying bottom up in front of the drivers side tire. The tire is bent in toward where the grill & radiator would be, if you look closely you can see that side of the radiator shell is bent in slightly where the tire must have made contact,... the bend and mounting tabs are in the exact location as on the grill in question. and you can see the crank sticking out of the engine right about where the hole is on my radiator, and they look to both have the mounting stud broken off the same side. It looks like they took a picture of the pages of that book,.. a scan or a clear print from the author, might be what we need to disprove or verify that this is or this isn't the same radiator,... but like I said before, for a hand built piece,.. these would be a Lot of coincidences,... even the damage.
Dennis, Jim, The INDY wreck photo is in the Jack Fox INDY 500 book, my digital camera is crap, the photo in the book is much better but nowere as clear as the ones Fur Biscut posted of the side views of the cars. My guess is that good originals are in the INDY 500 museum photo collection. Someone posted a link to their online inventory, maybe just full car shots but I bet there are others. Did Automobile Quarterly of Griff Borgeson ever do a full story on the early Frontenac & Monroe INDY cars? I'm really impressed in the fact that the cars were so aero smooth, very few attchment screws.
Great idea,.... Does anybody have a contact person or know someone at the Indy museum ? or a copy of the Jack Fox book and a scanner ? I really am anxious to find out the history behind this, and what car it was on,..... Thanks for all the help guy's.
The Jalopy Journal
