? about Carb rule for HA/GR

This is a Questain to all Hampers who are thinking of running in or are running in HA/GR now.
The rules are for pre 1962 inline 6 cyl. engines and flatheads. But is the outlawing of the Holley 4 barrel right? The 4150 single feed Holley came out in 1957 as did the Carter AFB. There are some guys running Rodchester 2 barrels and these didn't comeout until the mid 50's.
I think that the 4150 single feed-vac secondary only carb as built by Holley for Ford should be allowed--no DP and no 3310's just the stock 600cfm Holley. Also the AFB should be alowed to race as it to was introduced in 1957.
Last what about the Holley 2 barrel carb model 2300 it to came out in 1957 on the Y Block?
I like the layout of the cl*** but I think it's not right to outlaw one carb and not an other one! How do you guys feal?
By the way I can't use a Holley 4 barrel on the engine I will build for HA/GR--but would love to be able to run the 2 barrel Holley.

 

Simple, here in Oz we say no 4 barrels, end of story.

Only single and twin bore 'period' carbs.

Note: this topic has been bashed over and over again.

 

My feelings are that though they may be "period production", they aren't really "period correct". If you look back at any of the rails being built back then, I doubt that you will see any four barrel carburetors being used on those cars. Seems like the norm was multiple carburetor setups on log manifolds.

Some people may disagree, but my feelings are that four barrel carburetors aren't in "the spirit of the bug".

 

The rules state "No modern Holleys or Edelbrocks". This implies the Holley 4150 and the Carter AFB. The 4150 and it's two barrel variant are "Modern" style carbs. The current Edelbrock is a copy of the Carter AFB. They also make a version of the Rochester Quadrajet, and this too is a "modern" carb.

I understand that some of the teams have gone to a lot of trouble to find a mid-50's four barrell or two. It's hard to fault them for trying. In my opinion, even though a piece of equipment came out in a certain year, it really wouldn't have been considered "speed" equipment by the common racer. A rule against not using actual vintage parts will be hard to enforce. We've been able to beat them using Holley 94's so it's not a big deal to me.

 

So it's ok to run a Rochester 2 barrel that came out in the mid 50's and it's not ok to run a Holley 2 barrel 2300 that came out in the mid 50's?

 

It seem's no one likes the name Holley no matter what year it was made.

 

I think we read in something that isnt there sometimes.

The rule says:

16. Era specific carbs only, stock appearing- no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs.

I think the addition of the wording "modern" kinda says it all.

Non of the later holleys and chrome edelbrock etc.

I used two 57 AFBs on our GMC but will more than likely go to multiple carbs later as time permits , if no other reason just pure looks!

 

Those big one barrells that the Hornets use, look like a pretty good option. I bet they can be had for little to nothing. The ****erfly looks to be around an 1 1/8".

 

I was running a 1958 rochester 4 jet. is this a "modern" 4bbl? no one said anything when I ran it all last year. Was I running an illegal carb?

 

"Era specific" is "Era specific." The rule should stand as written...not as interpreted. Carbs that came from the era (pre-1962)...that is what the rule says. Modern would be 1962 to present..............

 

I think the point of the issue is to rule-out high-zoot-pro-tuned specials. I sure don't fault anyone for finding an old carb and putting a kit in it. I think all of the pure HA/GR cars built so-far have legal carbs.

 

Guys,
This was my point--SqtMOD42 is running a 1958 Rochester(pre '62) and GMC Bubba is running a pair of 1957 AFB's (again pre '62). I don't have a problem with those carbs and don't feel that an early 4150 single feed Holley which came out in 1957 should not be allowed to run. I'd like to run a Holley 2300 2 barrel which came out in 1957. By the way I pm's Ryan but he didn't answer me so I put it on here hopping to hear from him and get imput from others. I know he has a lot to do so thought this might make him put in his two cents worth and explain the carb rule a little better for all of us.

 

Don't try to understand rule #16 as written...to vague...there are exceptions as you have mentioned. If it says holley on it forgetabou***. If it says Edelbrock on it forgetabou***.

 

This really isn't a big deal to me. I'd like to say "go for it". I'm also pretty familiar with the "modern" Holley two barrell. They are very popular in circle track racing. About as much effort has been put into tuning the two barrell variant as has been the four barrel one. A set of three two's of that breed would be a real trick set-up (advantage). You'd better get the word from Ryan. I just state opinions around here. They aint worth too much.

 

What makes you think you will have an advantage if you run a 4bbl Holley? They are a crude and inaccurate instrument especially the early ones you want to use.
Could you buy a 4bbl manifold for a flathead in the fifties? What was the real era of the bug? 1951 or 1957? Even though the 4150 Holley came out on the high end versions of the Y block etc , could the average hotrodder/drag racer of the day get his hands on one at an affordable price......The spirit of a rule is not always bound by hard facts....., the rules have been made leave it alone.

 

The rules seem to imply that all components must be pre 62. I think that pretty well defines what we're allowed to run on these cars. I'm completely comfortable with anyone running early Holley and Carter AFB's.

From my experience (50 + years) there are so many ways to screw-up an engine combination that I'm not worried if someone wants to run the latest Holley or Edelbrock. A new style carb isn't going to give them any advantage. The secret is in the correct combination of parts, not how big, or new, your carb is.

Hell, just keep it pre 62 and there won't be any problems.

Ron

 

Guys,
Your missing the point! I'm not interested in running a Holley 4 barrel!! I just don't like it being excluded when it's a period piece! I'd like to run "ONE" Holley 2 barrel as it's easyer to set up one Holley 2 barrel that it is 3 Holley 1 barrels. It's also a lot more work to modify the 170's log intake to take 3 carbs(Offy doesn't sell there tri power for the 170 any more) and is far easyier to redo it to take the Holley 2 barrel. This reminds me of NHRA making Gliden carry more weight becouse his Ford made more power than the Chev. boys could make. I can modify the 170's log intake to take the Rochester 2 barrel (which came out at the same time but is ok to run)as they make a racing 500cfm that would work well. But why should I have to spend money for a Rochester when I have a Holley sitting on my shelf collecting dust! The Holley 2 Barrel is period correct--it came out in 1957!
The whole idea of the cl*** is to have fun and keep the cost of the building down. Even with the Holley 2 barrel I'm not going to be able to out race GM Bubba and the othe GMC/Chev inline guys. But I just want to have fun and feel the rules need to be fair and not so GM heavy!!!

 

What 97 said.

 

97 and others,
4 barrel intakes were made by everyone for the flathead in the 50's as Carter came out with the WCFB in 1952. Adapters were soon made to mount Holley's on every intake after it came out in 1957 as were addapters for the Carter AFB. Holleys could be gotten a a fair price back then new or used,just like AFB's could be gotten at a fair price.
I have never liked Cookie Cutter Cars and Cookie cutter engines. Thats why I have built SB Fords and 4 Cyl Fords to race with. I also do not like unfair rules and see the carb rule as unfair! Again I do not plan on running a Holley 4 barrel, but would like to run a Holley 2 barrel. So the last time I looked I had a right to voice my ideas! Why does this rule have to be written in stone? Why can't period carbs be included as they should be? Why not put it to a vote on the Hamp and let members vote for the carbs that should be allowed to run. Make a list of all 1 barrel,2barrel and 4 barrel carbs with their date of interduction and let the members vote. I think that would be fair.
Also instead of pushing the Auto trans guys away, they should be welcomed and made a seperate cl*** inside of HA/GR such as HA/GR-A. Make them no trans breaks and only transmissions that were made in 1962 or before. No aftermarket transmission cases , in and out boxes or clutchflights. Again just my 2Cents worth.

 

There are others who share some of your ideas...at least in part, but Ryan has posted several times on these issues and he wants to leave the rules as they are written.

 

What is unfair about the carb rule??? If you run the carbs as the rule says, nothing is unfair about it!!! We are all in the same boat, leave the rules alone. It is byfar more of a challenge to have to run my flathead against a 340" GMC engine than worry about carbs.

 

Dutch,

For what it's worth you have my vote to run your Holley 2 barrel. Good carb for your size engine. Besides....you already have it and that makes it even more desireable.

Ron

 

I am running a Carter two bbl carb that was introduced in 1959, and I think that it fits the rules. Others may disagree, but that is what I had and it is perfect for the six that I am running.
I for one, see no problem running the Holley 2 bbl as it was around then.
Like was previously mentioned, that is my opinion, which is not worth a whole lot!

 

Guys...MODERN holley. the carbs you are debating aren't modern.
If someone was to try to sneak in a Demon or some other refined/tuneable carb...then I'd pitch a fit. The carb he is asking about was OEM and offers no advantage.
What's the problem?

 

Guys...guys...guys...you don't get it. As has been pointed out on here on more than one occasion...they have to look right. It does not matter how they perform. If they were not SEEN being run on those old diggers back in the early 50's they just will not do. Don't confuse peformance with having the "right" nostalgic look.

 

"In the spirit of the Bug". The only pics of the Bug I've ever seen show a car with no bodywork except for the cowl. Does that mean we shouldn't run bodywork? Obviously no. The rules say pre 62 and yet there are pre 62 carbs that aren't legal. When the time comes I'll live with the current reading of the rules but it doesn't make much sense to me right now. Nobody is asking to run a brand new AFB, or an Edelbrock clone, or a Holley dual line double pumper, but a two barrel that came on a Y-block pre 62 should be as legal as any other pre 62 carb. They were readily available in junkyards and at parts stores in the day. Heck my Uncle Al had a whole shelf of them for the various cars and trucks he had on the farm.
GMC Bubba ran two old AFB s and no one turned him away. He says he's going to change to something else but no one is forcing him to do so.
Personally, I have a much bigger problem with the motorcycle wire and aluminum wheels I see guys running. They wern't on the Bug style cars I've seen in the old magazines. I have slides of drag racing at Stout Field in Indy in 1955-57 and there are no motorcycle wires or aluminum wheels. I don't recall seeing motorcycle wires on dragsters untill the Slingshot era. Clearly these are NOT meant to be Slingshots.
If you want to clear the air just say no 4 barrels at all, but make any pre 62 single or dual throat carb legal. All this you can have this carb but not that carb stuff is confusing.
Don't get me wrong, I love this whole HA/GR idea. For me it's the neatest thing since the G***er days. Its made drag racing interesting to me for the first time in decades. The rules have not prevented me from building a HA/GR other problems have, but the pile of parts I gather for such a project keeps changing as I re-read the rules and see posts about other builds.
I'm not starting another trans fight, I've gotten over that, but an Auto trans, or a certain carb, doesn't change the early bug style appearance of the cars. But motorcycle wires and aluminum wheels sure do.
Ok, I'll stand against the wall. Bring on the firing squad.

 

My mother had surgery on Monday and she has been a handful since I brought her home. I have tried to catch an hour here and there to work on my car to find the problem with the trans...stuck in reverse.

If I get time tomorrow I am going to hook up a pressure gauge inline and see what the pump is doing. If not there I may check out the "s" hook inside...check for a stuck valve...or maybe the reverse band too tight. Sounds smelly and oily to me.

If I can get my son to sit with mom I will at least drive over and help the g***er guys. Good luck with the Hornet.

 

If that's the case, that's cool.
I for one was just waiting for you to chime in.
Are you busy enough yet boss?

I have to remember the "Spirit" of these things.
Nailheads were available pre 62 but, OHV V8's aren't part of this picture either.
Thanks for the input Ryan.