Fellas, I've been having some issues with my flatty but I need to give some background on it. The engine is a 1950 8BA, 56,000 miles. It ran but we could never keep it cool, so my dad pulled it and rebuilt it in about 2003. The engine and car sat in the garage, covered and untouched. My dad passed away about 2 1/2 years ago. I got the engine back in the '50 Tudor and got it running and driving, but I began to detect a few things that needed attention. After about 2 hours of run time (off and on) I would start to hear a slight knock. It seemed to be coming from the the passenger side. I figured a piston was hitting the Offenhauser head. Also, the that same right side would heat up and not cool back down. I pulled the thermostat out to see if it had stuck shut but got the same result. It's also leaked around nearly every single head stud since the first firing. The car has been parked but started every few weeks just for fun. I ordered a set of premium head gaskets from H&H a few months ago and finally today, tore into it. So here's where I need advice: 1. All ARP head studs backed out with the nuts, or by hand after removing the nuts. I went through MULTIPLE warm-up/re-torque cycles to make sure the heads were torqued properly. Probably 5 or 6 times. All studs had a touch of RTV (or something similar) on the block side. How should I re-torque these, if at all? I've always heard they should only be finger tight. What should I use to seal them? RTV? Indian Head gasket gunk? Should I use a doubled up nut to torque them down, then back off both nuts? 2. When I install the new head gaskets, should I install them dry? What should I clean the block/head/gasket surface with to promote adhesion, if anything? Old gaskets were copper, seem to have been installed dry. 3. H&H told me when I ordered the head gaskets to use Bar's Stop Leak, but there seemed to be a procedure regarding WHEN to add it. Apparently head studs are notorious for leaking and if I remember correctly I was to add a full can AFTER I had done the heat cycle - retorque procedure a few times. It's Saturday, they're closed, I don't want to wait until next weekend when I have another few spare hours. After seeing no marks on the heads or pistons I believe that the knock I was hearing was not a piston hitting a head after all. Shit. Now all I can hope is that it's related to a head gasket thing (wishful thinking) because otherwise I'm probably looking at a bottom end issue.... ugh! Any and all advice on 1, 2 and 3 are sincerely appreciated!!!
For number 1, did yall run a tap through the holes when it was rebuilt? DO NOT tap it if it hasn't been tapped. If it has, sorry bout your luck... Number 2, I just installed dry with no problems. Torque from back to forward on the head and you will be good. Number 3, I have no information for you on that. I didn't have leaks on my 8ba when I put heads on Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
1. Seeing as how water was leaking out of head studs (at head nuts) it's obvious that it was coming from: A) a massive gasket leak (not likely, as leaks were occurring at multiple studs) B) bases of ARP studs not properly sealed in block. (often times blocks have small cracks at head bolts/studs, require sealing at the threads) Competent rebuilders will insist on studs, as when they were sealed, they will be 'permanent', until forcibly removed; as an extra precaution, Bar's Leak or a similar product is generally added. Mayfield's Garage in Santa Clara used a 'Heavy Duty Block Sealer', best I've ever used. (Google?) 2. Copper sandwich head gaskets can be re-used, soak them in the bath tub in tepid water for an hour. Wipe dry, spray both sides with aluminum paint, install just after 'tacky'. 3. When torqueing heads, START AT THE CENTER! Do it in steps, 25 ft. lbs., then 40, then 50. Lightly oil threads, use hardened washers!
Thanks @pinkynoegg. Don't know if they were tapped or not. Seem to be good, clean threads with no wobble. Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Hi Eric, I like Atwater Mikes advise. I used to clean all treads in the block and studs and use a good sealer. Lock them in with the two nut method (not over tight), clean off any excess sealant and let it set. I also check all nuts run smooth and lightly oil them. The aluminium paint is a good old trick for assurance. JW
Mike, thanks for the input. I think you posted about the same time I did and I didn't see your post until now. How many ft. lbs. should the studs be torqued to with the sealant on them? Everything I see recommends "finger tight", then touring the head with nuts to seat the stud. I'm keeping the copper gaskets for emergencies. Yes, I always start at the center and use the Ford pattern for torquing. What should I use to clean the surfaces? Carb or brake cleaner? Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
And thanks Jeremy! Had you not replied I wouldn't have seen Mike's advice for a while! Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
for pesky head stud leaks I've had good luck using "Water Glass"...it can be bought just about anywhere, look for Sodium Silacate....it's commonly used to seal fresh concrete. Do an on-line search for proper use in hydronic systems.
I’ve always felt that if using studs in a flathead, it’s best to somewhat “permanently” install them in the block. ARP recommends using their sealer on their flathead stud kit but I personally think it’s too thin for an old flathead that may have sloppy threads in the block. I’ve build a few flattys and always use Permatex #1 form-a-gasket on the block side. I use an artist bruch and just cover the threads and then I brush a little in the threaded hole in the block so some is pushed in with the stud. Run them down to the stop with no torque. Then continue placing the head gasket, washers and nuts and torque in proper sequence in 4 passes working your way up to the final torque. Putting the heads on and torquing the studs immediately, insures that you don't get too much stud misalignment. Torquing them will tend to pull the studs as straight as they're going to be, whereas just gluing them in and letting them set up could make it more difficult to get a head on or off in the future. I’ve never had a leaky stud (knock on wood) with this method. That sealant is supposed to get somewhat hard when set but I’ve found that it never seems to fully harden in this application. It’s more like thick tar. The stud can be removed but you’ll have a tough time getting that gunk off the stud! Copper gaskets were commonly sprayed with aluminum paint, as mentioned above, and it worked very well. I’ve torn down lots of flatheads that had used it and they are the toughest ones to pull heads on. Now a days, I use copper spray sealant made by permatex. Works very well also. That being said, you mentioned that you’re using H&H gaskets. I’m not familiar with them and I would call them before using anything on them. Some new gasket material has sealant in it. Never have I ever used Bars Leak in a flathead. I pressure test my blocks before I build them and properly sealed bolts won’t leak. Use it if you must. Lastly, you may want to “clay” the heads while they are off just to make sure there is no interference. As far as the sound you’re hearing, could it be coming from the water pump on that side?
The Jalopy Journal
