Great thread. In looking at all of these varied injection applications I notice that the butterfly shafts all turn in the same direction. The fuel inlets are all on the outside. This means that on one side the side of the butterfly nearest the fuel inlet goes up and the other it goes down. Does this affect the responsiveness of the set up? I would have thought it better to have one shaft turning clockwise and the other counter clockwise to make the setup truly symetrical. Just an observation. Anyone with any views on this ?
Algon, Thanks for your answer. I am presently building a linkage to create a truly symmetrical arrangment using parallel shafts geared together and mirror image linkages to each throttle shaft. That will produce total symmetry at all throttle openings. BTW this is for an 8 carb set-up and not for injection.
That is an elegant and effective outcome you have achieved on that Windsor setup. I wish to build up a mechanical injection unit for my little 2.5 Daimler V8 similar to the Algon/Hilborn as it too has to have a period flavour to it. I know very little about these set ups and was wondering if there are schematics and descriptions of how these worked. Books on Injection these days are all about EFI. Any tips or directions would be most appreciated.
Algon, The Daimler 2.5 V8 is basically a baby Hemi. First released in 1959. Production continued up unitl about 1967/68. There was also a 4.5 liter variant. I think Limey Steve (Limeworks) on this site has one in a '32 roadster. Those manifold listings that you refer to would be for this engine. This is a pic of my little Daimler in the midget at present. Thanks again for your input.
Algon, Did they make a setup for the LA style Chryslers? (ie small block, post 64). How's the Bug? Summer treating you well? Take care, man! JK
One Algon part I did not see spoken about here is the Algon 12 port head for 270-302 GMC six cylinder engines. I have only seen one of these. It was iron and had a wedge combustion chamber. Much like a 283 Chevy I thought but I was told it was a copy of 331-365 Cad chambers. I don't know.
I bought some old parts and in the mix was a home made MFI system. This system was made for an in-line 4 motorcycle that was using methanol. Nothing is marked except the pump which has ALGON on it. It looks nothing like any of the pictures I have seen on this site. Does anyone have a manual that could help ID the pump? Are parts available anywhere for them (seals)?
I believe your correct on the seals. If you look at the seal in question, there is a step in it. I think the seals that were in it were not compatible with methanol and they swelled into shape and took a set. Front cover: Some of the parts for the pump: One of the seals in question:
Get a National seal or Chicago Rope catalog or a sales man who can read, and convert your sizes to a part number.
You think this was a standard O-ring shape as well then? Would guess they could all be purchased in a more compatible material. The plastics that were used in the pump don't appear to have been effected. Any ideas on a possible manual for it?
No I don't think it was an O ring. I do think it is a commercially available seal. There are thousands of them and few if any would design a pump to use a proprietary seal. They just look in the catalog for one that fits their needs and spec that seal. I use a National Seal catalog because that's what I have. Is there an industrial supply near where you are?
Checked the Parker manual to get an idea on what materials could be used. I only had fluorocarbon, so visited Martin Fluid Power. They offer perfluoroelastomer. Looking at the seals that were in the pump, most are square or rectangle now. They thought they were all O-rings that had set from fuel and age. Looking closer at the second seal like the one I show, there is no lip. It must have pushed into the Teflon a little different. No documentation, so this is sort of a guess. Checking seals for swelling now.
If those seals have been in there for 40 or 50 years maybe they did start out round. When I worked at the airline we had three kinds of O rings. One for fuel. One for hydraulic oil "Skydral" and one for mineral oil. I didn't do that so I don't remember which was which. Must be common knowledge between people who sell O rings.
New seals are bad. After 1 day of exposure to methanol, they are at least 50% larger already. The material they supplied is not correct or the Parker book is wrong. This is how seals get squared up. They swell into the groove and set. I was trying to pick a material good for gasoline, ethanol and methanol. It would be nice if it could hand other chemicals like brake clean. I saw three different materials in the Parker book, but the perfluoroelastomer was the only one they offered. What's a little strange is I tested some of the fluorocarbon rings (that I know are made from this). They have been exposed for double the time and actually have less swelling.
Whats good for gas may not be good for Alcohol. There must be somebody who knows about that stuff. I think I would call Kinsler or Hilborn,
I suspect you were likely given the wrong o-ring material. What color are the FFKM o-rings you have? Another one to try that's readily available would be Fluorosilicone (FVMQ). How much is the seal swelling? Some swell is acceptable.
FVMQ is one of the three I looked at but could not find. Do you have a supplier you use? The color raises some question. Some were brown, some black. I was concerned about the brown because the FKM seals I have are the same color. When I asked, the service guy said they were all FFKM. I have a control seal plus the ones from the pump to compare with the ones I am testing. I'll post a picture to show how bad things are. Guessing 50% but have not measured anything yet. Is there any reason not to have the parts anodized? I keep reading about people collecting these things and would hate to deface a national treasure!
Mix used was 100% methanol with Sunoco Blue. Mix now has a yellow tint, rather than blue. Upper left is FKM, after exposure to mix (brown). Upper right is supposed to be FFKM from MFP, after exposure to mix (black). Lower right is virgin FKM (brown). Lower right is from ALGON pump (black). Upper right was supposed to be FFKM from MFP, after exposure to mix (brown).
Are we not supposed to use this site's picture storage? Assume the links were removed for this reason. I took the enlarged seals back to Martin Fluid Power. They had been removed from mix for about a day and a half and had shrunk some but were not at their original size. MFP pulled out the Proco Chemical to Elastomer Guide. This guide calls out Nitrile ( Buna N ) being compatible with all three fuels. The Parker manual shows it being a problem with Ethanol and Methanol. Wish the two companies would at least agree. Hard to pick something otherwise. I'll give these seals a try....
The Nitrile seems to hold up very well to all three fuels, or at least it does not swell. I took the front assembly apart and noticed two seals that I had thought would be a bearing. These are marked 4946 C/R USA. One can be seen in the attached picture of the pump. Guessing that there were some clearance problems with how it was mounted as the snout appears to have been ground down on one corner. The rest appears to be in good shape.
Your pump looks a little fancier than I remember mine looking. I remember a spline drive cylindrical kind of thing that looked pretty aircrafty and without any specially cast or machined parts. Long time ago. It was a four bolt hold down.
The Jalopy Journal
