I tried water with water wetter and premix anti freeze. When I drainded the system I went with standard coolant. The manufacturer suggested 50/50 to 70% coolant versus water. Although I may have not achieved the 50/50 mark, the results were positive. 180 steady is good news to me.
The standard thermostat opening is sufficient to cool 3x your horsepower in most OHV engines, with only one thermostat. I'm not denying your results but think there is a touch of flawed logic. I still like the high flows though, and do appreciate you sharing the experience. Good luck
Not to go a different course but.... and this is not spam, just my results.....I had my pumps rebuilt by Skip Haney in Florida. What a difference that made. My flathead without stats never got above 180 on a 95* day. He has an improved impeller design that moves more GPM than a stock pump. The pumps you send him are the ones you get rebuilt and every pump is tested before it is sent back. It's fluid movement that I'm convinced of.
Ok, gotcha. When we first got the shoebox it would run fairly cool in town but at idle and anything over 40 mph would get it boiling fast. It is a fresh motor, rebuilt in 1973 and never fired. Pumps were new in 73. It had a stock radiator and fan. Redrilled fan mount for a 16" 8 blade fan from a 440 chrysler, added sbc distributor runs at 180-190 all the time now and can idle all day long wtithout boiling over. Still using the stock radiator and 180 degree thermostats On a really hot day it will get a bit warmer, but only when in traffic or idleing. Someday I'll find a good sheetmetal guy and get a shroud and it should never get hot.
Timing is VERY important on a Flatty. Very important for good temps...keep fiddelin with it for your altitude etc. My two bits.......
I use a 180' in all five of my flatties. All run new style pumps, 2800 cfm puller fan on at 180 of at 172 where I can, 4 core copper/brass radiator, distilled with water wetter. Timming is a good point as mentioned by Lemming. I also run Offy heads on all of my engines. If you have them torn down and on the overhaul bench. A real good cleaning of the water passages with a stiff bottle cleaning brush sure will help loads. But, no over heating problems in my fleet.
Oh yeah....also make sure your radiator shroud(between the hood and rad) has a good seal against the hood....you need the air going through not around your radiator.
I've read several articles on improvements to the water pumps similar to what Irish Mike was talking about. the fix is to take the curved vain impellers from the 50's flatheads and use them in place of the straight vained early units. the water flows better thus better cooling. just what I've read. haven't had the pleasure of doing.
You are correct lostforawhile; In every case where someone has chosen to keep the original unpressurized radiator there will be occasions that the coolant will boil over. The easy, dependable, time proven remedy is to wake up and realize that incorporating a pressure solves 90 percent of the 'so called' overheating problems. Fact is, with a pressure cap, 10 to 10 degrees higher simply isn't 'overheating' anymore, because overheating to me is when the coolant starts to boil over! Trust me, it works. I have converted several of my own old cars over the past 20 years, and helped dozens of old car buffs with the conversion. Plain fact, again, it works wonders.
Have you tried advancing your initial timing a bit more? Too retarted runs hotter I believe. Start with a few degrees, they drive it for a bit, and see if there is a difference. Also, do you have a fan shroud?
and actually, as i understand it, there's really no way of slowing the speed of flow, just obstructing it so that it doesn't flow properly. stats increase turbulence, which helps transfer heat out of the liquid, with two thermos that might be a real consideration.
Only if the engine overheats. If the engine overheats, you've got another problem. Overheating is when your engine is running hotter than designed. Symptoms will manifest themselves in various ways. If you run a flathead at 220, but don't boil over because you've got a pressure cap, you're still overheating. I have no doubt you eliminated boiling over. Boyle's gas law is pretty simple. But if you're talking about a flathead operating above 210 or so, it's overheating and you're masking the problem. Fix the problem and there's no need to increase the pressure. Besides, many of the '30s radiators cannot withstand much pressure due to the tremendous surface area of the tanks. See above. What Bruce is saying is that Flatheads (and many vintange engines) were never designed to run that hot. That means there's other inherent problems in the engine/cooling system and raising the pressure is masking those problems. Boyle's gas law has been around since the mid-1600s - it was a well-understood principle. The engines simply were not designed to run at these temps. It's not that it's not traditional, it's that it's masking another problem. I just ran a freshly rebuilt flathead w/<1000 miles on a 250 mile round-trip in the heat of the day - temps at speed (60-75mph in the heat of the day) hovered around 180-185 as measured at the head. You want flow. Ford designed the original water pump with three straight impellers, then four, then six - all in an effort to increase flow. It defines logic to want to slow flow. T-stats help increase temp quickly (reduces condensation and sludge) and provide a slight back-pressure to reduce localized boiling at the various hot spots. Ford also engineered this into the 8BA by reducing the size of the outlets significantly compared to earlier engines. If you've got a combination of stock components (to include mild hop-up stuff), you should not be boiling over. Period. If you are, there is a problem. Period.
Losing coolant with an unpressurized system is the status quo. Period. It's not a problem, but a happenstance. Using the term OVERHEATING is subjective, a state of mind. When cars without thermostats were everybody's daily drivers, on a hot August day, it was as common as sparrows on horseshit to see cars pulled over because the water was boiling. Everyone that I know that experienced that, that now has an old car, would simply grin to hear people continue to ignore the benefits of a pressure cap. In the 1950s if you drove ANY Model A hard on a hot day it would lose coolant. Back it off to 45 mph and it would quit spewing. Our '36 would cruise all day without boiling, drive it hard with a tailwind and it would spew over, as it was also with my Uncle's, and my Cousin's and all of our neighbors. It was a social event on a Sunday afternoon to head out to town and stop and talk to the neighbors when we saw one pulled over waiting for the cooling to happen. Life is simple. Fact is, they weren't OVERHEATED when spewing over, never suffered any damage so long as the radiators weren't ran dry, they were simply losing coolant because the pressure cap hadn't been invented yet. You guys that are insisting that using a more efficient design water pump, on one hand, but resisting using a pressure cap on the other, seem to be ignoring the obvious. For me, when theres even a hint of a problem, its off to the radiator shop to have the fill-neck converted. That don't cost as much as two new water pumps! Of course it would go without saying that the motor and radiator cant be plugged up, the impellers in pumps darsent be rusted away, the fan would be positioned properly, and the radiator capacity would be adequate. Anybody that ignores the benefits of converting to a pressurized system is truly living in the past. I know several guys that won't convert to pressure, they live with it, don't drive around on 90 degree day, restrict their driving to morning and evening, they're content with that. All of you guys that don't want to run pressure cap, that's your deal. You can live with the inadequacy, that's fine. Me? I'm going the other way.
The problem with hitting 220 on an unpressurized system and boiling over is that the boil creates vapor pockets and you get localized areas where it's much much hotter than 220. Those localized areas are where damage happens. That's not the case with a pressurized system at 220. I'm not gonna try to argue with a flathead expert about what temperatures they can take in practice, you guys know more than me. But wanted this specific bit of info thrown into the thread. 220 with boiling is vastly more damaging than 220 without boiling.
Also the spewing of water from unpressurized old cars is not usually boiling over...it is simply the general expansion overflowing and also the rush of water from upper hose. At the car's general "normal" temp, it fill blow out a bit after being filled, then spew no more unless it is run on a hotter day...some people fail to recognize this and keep topping off their A Models, leading to fresh spewing on every trip. If it is boiling, it will continue to spew until the engine siezes up. Different scenarios entirely. The "vapor pockets" are what Smoky discussed and studied in his cooling work. They occur locally in all engines he studied at NORMAL temperatures...in other words, there are flow traps and bad casting designs in there that are busily overheating even though engine in general is showing 180. These hot pockets naturally cause wear and perhaps detonation in the areas where they occur, even if nothing causes the general temp to show a problem. Suppressing these hotspots is helped by both backpressure at thermostats and by pressure, the pressure that occurs in your pressurized system at general temps far below 212. Pressure sustems run some pressure at normal temps, NOT just when fighting back boilover above 212!
Heres what I have ...it WORKS, brilliantly too ! 4-71 blown 8BA, bored .125" over Super clean block 4 row copper brass rad new 8BA pumps MSD 6BTM ignition (hidden) Mallory distributor 180 stats 10lb cap coolant catch that returns to the rad 2x250 cfm Stromberg WWs Offy heads (higher CR than is needed really) Distilled water 1 x bottle of water wetter ZERO Glycol (no freezing issues here) Ported Belond style headers with dual 2" system. I pushed Spal elec fam mounted b/w the rad and grille insert so its hidden Normally runs around 150-160 on a cool nite. Runs around 180 on warmish days Runs to a max of 190 on stinkin HOT days Hardly ever used the elc fan. IMO the key to keeping a FH from boiling is the prevention of hot spots on the syinder walls in the water jacket. One a hot spot develops, its can escalate quickly and you get a boil over situ. ANYTHING you can do to get that block clean is gonna go a looooong way to keepin her from boiling over. I had mine chemically stripped then I left her in molasses for two months. Came out lookng like it had been cast in the water jackets. Remember this is a blown FH with a little too much CR and no mech fan/shroud. A sure recipe for overheating. But she doesnt .....thats why I feel its due to super clean ater passages. The clean foundation is the key....then evrything esle comes into play, jetting , timing, pumps,rad etc. just what Ive learned. Rat
Thats an important point. Improved performance, especially with volumetric efficiency, can result in energy being converted to work instead of heat-waste with no increase in water jacket temperature.
And a codicil...since the exhaust runs through the water jacket for a considerable distance, running retarded timing is a super efficient way of heating the thing up.
I don't know what the hell is wrong with my flathead. The radiator is an original Deuce with an original radiator cap. I did install the cap rebuild kit. It's not pressurized. The fan is stainless but that was more for clearance than cooling. The water comes out of the well in front of my house and the thermostats are 160 IIRC. Every other year or so I have to add water from the garden hose when I start to notice that the temp starts getting up above 180 while idling. It has never overheated and I can remove the cap anytime I want. I feel so left out. No special water additives, electric fans or special water pumps. No special size washers to replace the normal stats. No flathead mythological solutions. Just a boring old hot rod with an old flathead engine. Let me add that I built this car before the internet so nobody scared me into thinking that flatheads "always overheat". Nobody warned me that I must have all the "cures" listed above. I never owned a flathead but grew up with them on every street corner so I had no preconceived ideas of what to expect except that they are reliable but not really powerful, comparatively speaking. I built it expecting to get the same results that the guys did when I was a kid in the 50s...and I did.
I've got a '48 F-1 with a '53 flatty in it....motor hasn't been rebuilt, just cleaned really good, runs like as top....stock thermostats, 50/50 coolant/water, 6 volt, stock fan, stock distributor with stock points, new aluminum radiator....It was 95 and humid here a couple of days ago and that old truck never got above 190...I'm a firm believer in the idea that you shouldn't need an electric fan...people got these flattys to run cool 60 years ago without electric fans, there's no reason why a person shouldn't be able to now....just my $.02....Carry on gentlemen....
I totally agree with you (as I have pretty much the same set up as you). I've read through this thread a couple of times, and not here to really add any drama, but it just seems like people ignore the fact that there are NUMEROUS variables involved with temperatures, especially in Flatheads. While I appreciate people trying to contribute *new* info, you can get by just fine without a bunch of snake oils and wizardry. It's 70+ year old technology! Take a step back. Radiator clean and tight? Timing good? water pumps working OK? Drive it! And I have to say I'd probably be shitting myself if I was anywhere near 200+ degrees
You old fart Tommy! Your flathead just doesnt know its the new millenium. Happy to hear its a good one. Back to pressurizing... My rebuilt 59a in the 34 pickup was hotter than I wanted from the get go after I build it. Ok at idle and putting around town but ran 200-210 in the 4 lanes. It was originally set up just like Tommy's. Here's my step by step afterward. Installed an Msd..adjusted timing and advance... no change Ran 100% vinegar through it. Found some junk in it.. no change Had a set of Skip's pumps installed... and at the same time (Not mentioned yet..). installed a 6 pound pressure regulator at the overflow instead of changing the neck at the radiator. (skip sells these too) some change but created another issue... I couldn't control the pressure it continually would force pressure out the sealed tight radiator cap and the regulator at high speeds. That led me to believe I had a combustion leak somewhere.. Took the newly installed heads off and resealed them with no evidence of even a minor crack anywhere. The pressure still became too high. Finally.... Took the pressure regulator off and so far I have run a full year with no loss of coolant and it never goes over 180. Just goes to show every one of these engines behave alittle differently
from the new guy.... also remember that the fan is more for stop or lower mph..... I'm not sure but I think that they made a clutch fan for the late model flatheads. also do you have a fan shroud? or just the fan.
Remember that the mechanical fan is more powerful than electric, IF you have problems at idle. Electrics are for space problems, fans in general are just in the way once car is moving fast. Ford did have a temp control fan available in '46-8...the "clutch" was a slurry of oil and magnetic particles of some sort, and when fed electricity via a temp controlled switch was thickened by magnetism and drove the fan! I think "Electromatic" was the name. Have one or two, never tried one. You could make a more sophisticated pressure valve for early fords by terminating overflow hose in a T fitting in a return tank and adding in and out pressure valves in the T...something like streetrod brake pressure valves, lighter springs on one, mounted in opposite directions...tanks shoulfd be rebuilt with inner bracing before using much pressure in a Ford...I mentioned watching the tanks on my '48. Bulge and snap out under pressure, snap back in during cooldown. Sufficient pressure for that was at about 160...car in general ran at 180. Tanks scared me, went back to presureless.
As stated above, pressurizing the system will not make it run cooler it just prevents the over heated water from boiling out. I'm glad that you solved the initial problem in stead of just covering it up.
Now I'm thinking I should put the stats back in and loose the 50% antifreeze. Very confusing..........
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