I'm following this thread with great interest, but I'm confused. It has always been my understanding that thermostats were there for the express purpose of keeping the water in the block until it came up to operating temp. After that they had no function. I know that an engine needs to sit around 180-185 to be at optimal operating temp, but how long it takes to get to that temp (ie: quick warmup compared to slow warmup) is probably of little consequence in a hot rod. By my reckoning then, thermostats are an unnecessary item. What is wrong with this logic, if anything?
I've never seen a new car come without a thermostat. I don't believe that they would include one if it was not necessary. My 34 P/U uses a stock 34 radiator to cool a 259 Studebaker engine. The P.O. did pressurize it. In the spring cool weather I could not get the engine up to 160 without a thermostat. Too cold for my liking. You hear a lot of people say that you need a stat to slow down the water in the radiator or it will over heat. I say that I have never experienced that. Without a stat I have a hard time getting the engine up to temperature. They drove all these engines in Arizona in the 40s. I understand that it got hot back then too. I was still shittin' yellow back then. It's just my opinion but I think the old wives tales just keep getting repeated over and over without any first hand experience. I try to just speak about my personal experiences. Many of my experiences do not agree with the folk lore. I just realized that I had forgotten about my old 36 Ford P/U with an 8BA in it using the stock unpressurized radiator and fan set up. It never overheated either. It was a fun old beater with a tired but steady old flathead with God only knows how many miles on the engine. I was about 150 miles from home when the fiber cam gear gave up but the cooling system never blinked.
The reason I asked, and am confused, is because not one of the 23 or so flatheads I've owned over the years has ever had a thermostat. Some have cooled fine, others have had the usual boilover symptoms. I live in a temperate climate, without extremes of temp, so mebbe that has something to do with it. The project I'm building currently is a mild 59AB with a modified A radiator. Now I'm trying to decide whether or not to incorporate thermostats, whether or not to put a mild pressure cap on (4lbs?) and whether or not to incorporate a puke-catcher. Gee life was so much simpler before the Hamb....
Think of the T-stat as a regulator or a water switch. It is there to maintain the optimum temperature as determined by the t-stat setting. It opens and closes as the water heats and cools. It helps to hold water in the radiator to cool and releasing back into the block. Off and on. Sort of a simple way of looking at it but true. In new cars you need this optimum temp range to allow all of the emission devices to work correctly and to allow the fuel to vaporize correctly.
Well, we're in a circular argument now. I could do one more attempt and go slower and louder, but I won't bother. Try whatever you want, but Bruce and Tommy are right (as usual).
Ernie..No argument from me. Here in the Lone Star State at 105' and 95+ humidty we need all the help we can get to cool the old girls down. I run them both ways in all of my Flattys. Some with original rads, low psi caps no t-stats some with super cooling rads and T-stats, 16psi caps with modern electric fans. I actual prefer the original out on the highway. But in the stop and start cruzin in the summer heat. The modern way does us better. But your right...Damn that Bruce and Tommy. They always seems to be on the stick!
No arguments from me, i'm just trying to get my head sorted. So it seems a low pressure cap and thermos are the go. What about a puke-can? Should that be installed with a low pressure cap?
I would just for looks. I use an old "Balls" Mason jar. What really looks cool is one of those old thin fire extinguishers used as one.
Non pressurized systems and thermostats can and do work. I'm not saying it is better than a pressurized system with electric fans and all the expensive paraphernalia. ( I do say that it looks a hell of a lot better) I'm just saying that it is not really necessary if the original system is up to snuff. All my experience has been with stock original Ford radiators in stock Ford grill shells. Both flatheads and over heads. If you have a chopped radiator for a channeled car then all bets are off. There seems to be this general opinion that a flathead will overheat if you don't do all the extra stuff and that is just plain not true. I don't think a coolant recovery system will work on a stock early Ford neck but I have never tried one. One common mistake for guys new to non pressure systems is that the coolant will not be up to the top as we are used to seeing it when checked cold. Coolant will come out as it heats up the first time and expands. When it cools it will contract and not be up to the top when cold. Topping off the radiator just means it will come out again as it heats up....perfectly normal. When cool there needs to some space for the coolant to expand. I don't believe that thermostats snap open and closed during normal operation. I personally don't do it but back in the 50s it was pretty common in this part of the country for normal maintenance to include putting in a 180 stat in the fall and 160 stat in the spring. Now a days people bitch if they can't get 100K out of a set of plugs.
the only reason why newer vehicles run at 220 continuously now is for emissions reasons,that's it,no other reason,period.It's the good old government regulating for the safety of the planet?!...back when these engines were built,i don't think they were thinking "We have to save the planet!"as they were puttering along at 50 mph.I've always used deionized water,maybe watter wetter for the hottest months and an aluminum radiator for good measure with a 1600 cfm puller fan,and a 160 degree thermostat never had any sort of overheating issue whatsoever ,maybe 190 at the most sitting in traffic...just my 2 cents...timing plays a BIG part in it also...
Thermostats also have a stealth role in keeping a slight head of pressure from the pum to suppress those hot or cavitating spots, according to Yunick. Anyhow...Ford went to thermostats in 100% of flatheads in 1933-4 about...so only the '32's (think TROUBLE) all came without. I can post specs in a while...and remember that at this time Ford was fighting the 1932 reputation for being a boiler. Lightly loaded engines, even flatheads, can run well under design temp without stats. An engine rolling a 2,000 pound roadster around town is hardly putting out any work, not enough to warm up properly sometimes. The reason you want proper temp, maybe 180 or so for older cars, and want to get to quickly, is pretty important. All engine parts are made to sizes and clearances that will produce proper running clearance at a certain temp...steel and especially aluminum grow considerably when moving from say 70 degrees to 180. Til warm all your parts are sloppy and wearing rapidly. Oil needs to be somewhere near water temp, because it doesn't flow as designed when cold...remember GM and Ford putting water coils under Camaro and Mustang oil filters?? There are also mixture issues (that also produce extra wear) on carbureted engines.
I think that's flawed logic - or "flawgic" The way I understand it, is the thermostat has two purposes: 1) To allow the engine to get up to temperature. If there was not thermostat, it may take a long time to get to temp of the water is continually running through the radiator. It may never get to temperature on a cold day without the thermostat. 2) Once up to temperature, the thermostat stops the engine from cooling down too fast. If you went down a long hill on a cool day and there was no thermostat, the water would be continually running through the radiator and could cool the block down too fast or too much. This could damage your engine (crack the block).
Some can not agree as to whether or not a thermostat will give a positive benefit, but there's no way in hell that it has an negative impacts (every car produced since the thermostat was invented has one), so why not just use one? To me it's that simple.
OK, so we're all agreed that thermostats should be used. No worries. Now I just gotta decide whether I'm gonna use this Model A radiator unpressurised and maybe with a puke can, or a pressurised Mustang radiator. Decisions, decisions. Sorry to hijack this thread, but I guess it's all part and parcel of the whole flathead cooling scenario, and therefore of interest to all lovers of real engines....
My understanding is that after helping the engine warm up quickly, the restriction of the thermostat actually forces the water to stay in the radiator longer, so it has a chance to do it's job; Transfer heat. Eliminating the thermostat(s) completely can make the motor run a bit hotter, as the water is passing through the radiator too quickly. I've tried this experiment with my own engines and found this to be true....others may have differing experiences..
A large portion of this thread is based on boiling points. Maybe I am dense, but I would rather do what is needed to keep my engine as cool as possible. If this is done, it does not matter what the boiling point is, pressure or not, puke tanks, etc. I have 4 flathead motors now, two Ford v8's, two Studebaker 6 cyls. All run distilled water, 2 bottles of watter wetter and anti-rust, good shape 3-row Modine oval tube radiators, (more surface area to cool) gutted thermostats, (never cold enough to need it to heat up quick) plastic 6 blade fans, (they are black, look stock) good caps and all the openings to the radiator sealed up like stock to keep airflow to the radiator. I live in Socal and it does get hot, but none of my rides do. I can sit in traffic and never worry. Oh, BTW, anti-freeze was around, it was invented in 1926. And it was called anti-freeze then, renamed coolant by advertising people to increase the perceived value when the higher boiling point was established. I do love Advertising!
????? For Bruce or Flat Ernie. All this talk about mixtures, thermostats, water wetters, anti-freezes/coolants, but nothing about usage of water soluable oils in the cooling systems and their affects. Am I off base here with this wondering as to the affects or non-affects of water soluable oils? I ask because thats what I have seen run in "STOCK" model A(s) here in Bakersfield, Ca and we get up to 110*. I have heard do not run anti-freeze in your model A 4 banger quite a bit, that its best to run distilled water with water soluable oil. I would appreciate just getting an answer from Bruce or Flat Ernie first, I take their statements as fact based upon experience of many years with plenty of firsthand mythbusting by them. Thank you for all the information you guys have presented/hashed out. On Muttley's response to Ken, I expect someone to say the 180 of what everyone else does, its what makes the HAMB such a great diverse place to learn and spread information. If we all said or had the same ideas we would not be HOP-UPPERS/GOW-JOB Builders or maybe even HOT-RODDERS which was actually derogatory in the 50's lol (or so was said in a book from the 50's I read). Watch for my post of the article soon on Lingual of the 50's its sure to be interesting when I post it.-Weeks
If you go with the Mustang radiator, there's probably no reason NOT to run it pressurized - the tanks were designed for it. Which engine you run will dictate a lot, but realize you're designing your own cooling system at this point... This is one of the most persistent myths, IMO. Just remember, if you keep the water in the radiator longer to cool it, it also stays in the block longer to heat it - you're not gaining anything here. T-stats bring the car to temp quickly to help eliminate sludge, then provide some backpressure w/in the block to help eliminate boiling at localized hot spots. Think about it this way - when you burn your hand, do you want to just put it in water, or do you want to continuously run water over it? All else being equal, flow is king. I've got no experience with water soluable oils. I'm not qualified to speak about them. I have read/heard/been told that it helps with the early pumps that have bushings and packings (like your model A), but again, I've no real experience with it. My understanding is the quantities are quite small, so I doubt it will affect actual cooling very much. If you're not overheating and you're enjoying your A, quit worrying.
Hey nobody mentioned that the cylinder walls glaze up if not running up to temperature of at least 160 degrees this comes from fleet expe go ahead cant hurt my feelings Kenrience in the early 60's
My family ran a stock 51 Mercury for years in Kansas with hot summers and the blizzard of 1957 was a bitch. The car did well in all temps with the thermostats installed. When I tore that motor down and rebuilt it in the 1985 the damb block had a coffee can full of core wire and I don't know how much core sand in there. The temps are now well within the normal range for a heavy ars old Merc. It pays to know how clean your engines internals are. It's just amazing how well the engines would work with all that crap still in there. They will work a lot better when cleaned out.
been looking for some info on Barney,s cooling tubes inserted in the block, he said they kept the track cars cool, but I havnt found anything that shows exactly what he did? I think it was on the older 24 stud motors. Anybody know how he did it? or have done it?
I think modern consensus is they're far more trouble than they're worth... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391863
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