Another Serial Number Lesson Learned

Not the frame but this. And if they don't know the numbering system, they have a book about a foot thick so they can look it up.



This is pretty much a quote.
"I'm glad it's not a Chevy. It'll be a lot easier getting a title for the Ford, since they were registered by frame numbers from 1932 through ****. The Chevys were registered by engine numbers and that would be a lot harder too do."
Larry T

 

I won't say that some states still don't try to register a car buy engine number or frame number, but most go by serial number. If they tried to register my car by engine number, every car built that day would have the same VIN (it's only a date code).

 

Are you saying that my Model A frame is stamped in more than one place? I have a 29 frame and cant make out all the numbers, only enough to designate Nov. 1929 , My A Body is a 31 From what Im told. I have no receipts for ether
What can I do?

 

This has been a good and sobering read for me. I bought a 42 chevy pu from a guy who had it titled, but never drove it. I see this thread and start looking for a vin on the truck, no plate to be found. I check the title and the vin # reads a 46 late series code.The year date is 42 on the title. Now it looks like I'm in deep shit, as I wanted to try to redo this truck. I hope all the parts I've been collecting haven't been a big waste of time or $. any pointers on this issue. thanks

 

If anything happens to my Mom's A I don't know how it would develope. She has had the car about 25 years and the engine and vin matched. However, she is now on her third a engine (first was a cracked block second horribly rusted cylinder walls) which does not match the title. I have never checked a frame VIN and did not know there were 3?? (its a '28). I do know that back in the 1950's it was worked over a little so there is no knowing if the frame matches. On the bright side she does still have the original engine in its now rusty state.

 

tELL THAT DUDE TO RETAIN SALVAGE , TAKE THE 1000 DOLLAR HIT AND KEEP THE CAR

 

Here in Wisconsin, we have the same law in that the frame is the important part. If you put any vehicle on any later chassis, your car will have to be registered as the year of the frame and so conform to all safety and emissions laws that were in effect at that time. Not something you would want to do.

 

Swifter i have a truck body that does not have the original motor or frame .It is titled by the body number instead of motor or frame numbers (has been for many years ). How will an insurance company react to something like that?

 

The three spots the frames are typically stamped are all under the body on the left rail. The number was also stamped on the engine and bellhousing.

All I can tell you is that the police crime lab can find serial numbers on fire arms where the serial numbers were ground off. I promise no EASY answers. But if you can see some of the numbers, the rest are there.

 

Dean, we discussed this already. Get your paperwork together showing the vehicle is a '46. The engine number and body number matched your title. Ask them to correct THEIR mistake . This should be a simple fix.

 

Keep the engine. If this is the original A frame, you'll never see those numbers until the body is pulled from the frame. If this still has a banger in it, check the bellhousing, as the number should be stamped on that too.

 

The salvage value is based on their salvage history. They may say the salvage is $5K. The easy short term fix is for the owner to just keep the car. But what if they want $10K?

The other issue is the accruing storage charges. The towing and storage thru tomorrow will be $421. With the car being a total, the total limit paid will be $27,500. This means these charges will be the owners. The longer the car sits there, the more out of pocket it will be.

 

Great information! Thanks for posting it.

About a month ago MoparMan4GZUZ posted a link to a guide for all 50 states and their DMV requirements. This was a great link and I recommend everyone save it.



As for its accuracy I can tell you the Nebraska info was dead on.

The correct link is:

http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?id=62843#tag-title-toolbox-2011

 

If they ever bring this up, ask them if they change titles on late model
trucks if frames are replaced with newer ones during the course of being fixed by an insurance company. I bet they don't. This just sounds like an anti-hot rod law so that if you replace the frame with a new TCI frame, they'd claim it's a 2011 car.

Now I've never got any push back here in Florida. But I've also never called and asked the question. I fixed a '61 Corvette with a salvage frame shipped from San Diego that came out of a '62. Is this now a '62? With no numbers on the frame, how would they know?

I've also fixed a Chevy C10 pick up ('67 or '68) with a frame from a '72. Again, should this be retitled as a '72 even though every number on the truck says it's a '68? By a salvage frame and you won't get a title. Buy a cab and you might.

Again, every state is different. But I'd sure like to ask those questions to those in charge. I bet I'd just get a deer in the headlamp look on their face.

 

Nothing would change. Look, not every appraiser as a clue about VIN locations or what is good or what is bad. Some of us take pride in the job we do. This means if I was looking at your vehicle, I'd be trying to make the most accurate estimate for the repairs on your car. Why write up half the estimate when you can do it right the first time.

Some have no clue and you'll never hear a thing about it. If the vehicle is titled with the body number, like a Chevy, you're gold. THAT was the VIN. It's what is used today in most every state. That is the number I'm looking for when I see one of these trucks. The frame number is mostly a Ford thing.

I have seen vehicles titled with the engine number. If the number LOOKS like a engine number and the engine long gone, I'll note it and still use the body number. I let the insurance company know the engine number is consistent with the age and model in front of me. I'll make the suggestion the owner get the title number changed to match the truck. If it's a total, the insurance company may want you to fix your paperwork first.

 

good stuff Swiftster. Thank you for sharing and taking the time to inform us.

 

If this original incident had been worse, and someone were badly hurt or killed, would the insurance company deny liabilty coverage too?

My pile of parts has a specially constructed title. Cost more up front and annually but I don't regret it.

 

Definitely good info. But after you get a title, you need to know what your insurance company is looking for. The state is giving you paper. The insurance company is writing you a check.

 

I think that it depends on what "body" number he's refering to. I know of a 30's Pontiac around here titled to the body number on the firewall tag and that number is the same on all Pontiacs of that year and body style! Been that way for 30 years or so, no dought because a dmv employee couldn't find the real vin and used it to issue a title.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't referring to the cowl tag numbers. And you're right, the number would be the same for every car of the body style.

 

my stock model a has a CA issused vin # that is attached to the drivers side lock/B pillar. It was this way when I bought it and matches the reg and title. now someday if I wanted to build a hot rod I should have no problem replacing frame and motor? is this correct thinking? thanks

 

Well, one good thing about this state is about all they do now is check the serial number you give them against lists for stolen cars; if you show up with a registration they don't even do that, they never look at your car unless you say something that makes them think it needs to be inspected. So you can get away with using mismatched paperwork pretty easily - but it's so stupid easy to get paperwork that matches, it's not worth the risk. I could literally go down and get a registration and plates and not even have a car, just the serial tag off one.


One thing I think people need to watch especially building more traditional cars on original frames is this - you get someone's frame and leftovers from them going the 1-800-hot rod route with their car, you're probably not going to get the regi or title with it... so if you use the number on the chassis you end up with two cars having the same serial number. That can be a problem if it sets off a flag somewhere with DMV or insurance companies.

And you have a lot of Fords where the tag is on the door. Change the door out, there goes the serial number. That can be a problem.

Bottom line is you should completely educate yourself on ID numbers for the car you're interested in and check them out when you go to buy one - and learn what your state's procedures are if there's an issue. Because this is not the end of the world in every state - some make it a huge hassle and others it can be virtually irrelevant.

 

Editted:

Interesting comment.
A few years back, there was a major auction house in Arizona that was selling a 1956 Ford F-100 that was titled as a 1954. The cab was a 56 but the frame was from a 1954.

Apparently a lot a sh-t hit the fan with the buyer when he went to register it in his home state. Auction house ended up buying it back but do not know what happen after that.
I would assume it went back to the seller with a "thanks but no thanks" card.

 

As Rustynewyorker said, I had got an F1 that had one number on the frame, and a different number on the cab (came with no title). I have no idea which number the PO used for his truck, and so I didn't use either of the numbers on mine for fears of duplicating the number on his. Instead, they ended up merely as replacement parts, for which I had to find another F1 to use that was good.

 

The best title discussion I have read here on HAMB. lots of good info, not just a "cry, curse, and blame" thread.

 

In California and Arizona, if the serial number stamped on the frame matches the title, then that's what it is. Most people don't know the difference between an original 32 frame that has been all filled in, smoothed out, boxed and painted - and - an aftermarket one that looks the same.

I hate to say this, but how do you think all these rat rods get registered when they have a 2x3 home made frame, a tractor grille, chevy doors, dodge body, etc etc. Somebody signed off on it as being something, and once the title matched the numbers on the frame, all the DMV knows, is that is what it is...... now if the guy owning it wants it all fully insured, see my next paragraph.

I think the main idea here is that if you build something and you want it insured for a certain amount, is to get the car appraised by a professional, have a list of everything on the car and it's current value, have that 20 + page report bound and signed, notarized and accepted by the insurance company and each party have a copy on file. Then if something happens (accident, hopefully not), there is no question as to what is insured. I know Hagerty and others require this of many custom built cars and hot rods.

 

Swifster, With no cowl tag, the only paperwork I have on the truck is the title. Would this be sufficient proof or will I have to do some sort of back title search to find the owner before the guy I bought it from? It was titled a 42 to the previous owner, that's what he thought he was buying. 42-46 are the same body style and basic parts. Can a repro vin cowl tag be used in this case. Thanks

 

Swifster you no doubt cannot look at the original engine block but the question arrises did WI register the car off the engine number instead of the vin tag? Over the years I have run onto many cars even later model cars (like the MG) that had the engine number on the registration and or title as opposed to the vin number. If you don't have the engine that was in the car at the time of registration it is real hard to get those numbers changed.

It is just a question that comes to mind.

 

Swifster, There is no vin tag anywhere on this truck, and the only paperwork proof is the title. Will this be sufficient proof, or will I have to do some sort of back title search to find out where the truck year date change happened? The guy I got it from bought it because HE thought it was a 42 per the title, he just didn't check into the vin # discrepancy, as I didn't either. The 42 to 46 chev pu is the same body style and basic parts. Thanks for your input, it's really helpful. dean

 

Thanks for the good info, les