Another Serial Number Lesson Learned

This thread is more about what happens at insurance claim time than titling, though indirectly, it's part of the process. I've never bought a car without a title. I never wanted to deal with the headache. There is wisdom in your last sentence.

Many states look at these cars as what they are; hobby vehicles. Some states are less enlightened. I won't be a smart ass and tell those in less enlightened states to move, but you do have more work to do to get where you want to be. Thankfully, having lived in MI and currently in FL, both states have been accommodating.

 

Excellent post Swifster and I agree it should be required reading for anyone who posts asking how to get a title. I have a question that is coming from a little different angle. For those of us that only have liability have you ever seen an insurance company not pay off for damage we caused because of the same VIN issues? I'll bet there's a few on here thinking that this discussion doesn't concern them if they don't have replacement coverage on their vehicle.

 

So you wouldn't buy an old 32 Ford from a guy in a state that doesn't title old vehicles? (I think Connecticut, Maine, New Hampshire, maybe Vermont, and some others....)

That's good. Leave them for me.

 

On a replacment frame I was told they will use the engine number and or the body VIN prior to 1955.
The body VIN after that. Each state may be different but this makes a lot of sense.

 

Could you actually find one that is not rotted out from one of these states?

Last time I lived in one of them, I did notice a ton of wet weather, and a whole lot of salt on the road in the winter.

 

Hey Swifter,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my question, and thanks for your time with this entire thread. It is a big help to me and sounds like a big help to many others.

I don't like being in this "Gray area" that you mentioned in my case, but I don't know if I should just leave it, or talk to the NYDMV and potentially open a can of worms. Guess I will do some more probing very cautiously.

Take care.

 

I never have for a couple of reasons; First, on a car with straight liability, the car isn't covered and there would be no reason to write an estimate on the vehicle. Second, what happens at the insurance company doesn't always call for an appraiser.

Now, for the gray area. Say you cause an accident that results in a fatality. I could almost guarantee that there will be at least two appraisers looking at the vehicle because of possible lawsuits. This and the police will be all over that car while it's impounded.

The only time I've seen a vintage car claim denied was because the guy was using a ratty '87 Corvette as a daily driver. 17K on it in 9 months and he rolled the car thru a Michigan grave yard in March (snow and ice). They denied the claim on the car and the liability at the grave yard.

 

I think we'd all agree it depends on the state. Toss in New York and Georgia to your list. But if the VIN plates, if the car should have them, are missing, I'd probably think twice.

 

I've heard this too. I've actually heard of a FL car being titled with the engine number on a late '40's Chevy even when the body plate was present. I was rather surprised by this. This was on a completely stock car and they insisted (I was told) that the engine number was what they used.

But then I've looked at a '33 Dodge and '41 Plymouth and they were titled with the body serial number just like modern cars. I'm not sure why.

 

Again, if this helps you title the car, that's great. This is more about what an insurance company rep would be looking for and how to create as little grief as possible if you have a claim.

I understand your point. To a certain extent, not every person in my line of work is a rocket scientist. To many, if a car is not in the computer
database, they are lost and confused. If a part isn't available from their local salvage yard, it doesn't exist (most of the salvage yards I use are west of the Mississippi). If you want to see the proverbial deer in the headlamp look in there eyes, get an appraiser from some place like Progressive who will have absolutely no clue as far as where to start.

 

Thanks for this thread, it confirms the posts I have made saying to do it right!
I will also mention that of all the "How do I get a title now?" posts, 90 percent ask without doing a search and 99 percent do not come back afterward and explain how they dealt with it.

Just as you research how to swap in a motor or upgrade the brakes, you should figure out what YOUR state needs to get a legal right to own and drive your project!
Lots of guys are more build it types than document it all guys and gals. This should be a call to at least document some of the major parts and build so you can prove what you have out in the garage.

 

lots of valuable info I will talking to my agent shortly to make sure my cars are covered,and what needs to be done from there.Thanks

 

Thanks for the info.

 

OK Chevy guys, what should I do? I go to look at what's listed as a '42 Chevy Pick up. I check the serial number and there is a brand new serial number plate and the numbers 2NLXXXXXX. I know the '2' is Tarrytown, NY Assembly, and that the 2nd & 3rd letters are suppose to describe the vehicle. I have found NO reference to an 'NL' vehicle.

The owner admits the cab came with no serial number. If I have to total this truck, am I supposed to look the other way? This could be a '41, '42 or '46. If someone buys the salvage, what happens when the 'new' owner sues because the VIN is fraudulant and/or a fairy tale?

Can someone justify the 'NL'? There is an 'ML', but that is a heavy duty and may be a COE (can't remember). So, I'm putting you in my place, but if you respond, please tell me the reason you came up with your answer. If you want to tell me 'NL' is legit, show me proof.

 

could be a military vehicle? ask the guys over on www.stovebolt.com bet they will know.

 

LMFAO!
I've seen that look before many times!

I used to work for collision repair shops (18 years) and had to deal with this situation. I had a Progressive adjuster ask me to help him find parts for the repair of a 50's chev pickup because he didn't know where to start. I told him to use my estimate, but he couldn't do that, against company policy... go figure.

Progressive would hire people from the local rental car agencies and train them to be adjusters. The problem was that they knew nothing about cars...

 

That made me laugh! I got rearended in my '56 F100 and the guy was insured by Progressive. The adjuster is looking into the cab of my truck, with the 4 speed shifter and clutch pedal plainly visible and asked me if it was a manual transmission in the truck. WTF? Why he asked I don't know, and if he doesn't recognize a clutch pedal he should be doing something else. Played hell getting paid by them too.

 

This is how Flo gets you cheap rates...

 

Lol, I hear ya!

 

Unicorns and Glitter...

 

To the top for the day crowd...

 

1940 Ford pickup,.... A customer owns a '40 pickup with the "VIN" stamped on the bellhousing (aka clutch cover) The interesting thing was not finding a number ANYwhere on the frame. His vehicle in titled and insured, registered with the number found on the bell housing; My question here being, was this a commong thing? The "green book" only says the pickup VIN is located "on top of the clutch cover", nothing about the frame. 4TTRUK

 

My 40 Truck had it stamped in the frame right in front of the firewall. Pretty sure 40 trucks started with 54-

 

I have a '41 Chevy truck with title. The aluminum i.d. plate on the side of the cowl, under the hood, has been beaten into mush. You can barely make out 2 or 3 numbers that do match the title. I have a new blank plate, how do I go about getting it legally stamped? It does not have the original engine.

 

Call the DMV, gas4blood.

 

NM MVD is a blessing and a curse. On one hand, no one knows the real rules, and they just get huffy if you show them in writing. On the other hand, if you ask enough people, you can find one who 'knows' the way you want to do things.

We also have independent contractors, that charge an extra $20+ per form. The good thing is the good ones know ALL of the rules (and their 'knowledge' matches the actual legal code), and will walk you through step by step, magically produce forms the real MVD says don't even exist, and get anything titled and registered legit (assuming it's not stolen, and you have physical possession of the car). And no waiting for hours.

I've had many cars with NM titles that were messed up by NM state MVD - wrong year on the title, Cali title number in the VIN spot on the NM title, from when the PO moved here from Cali, typo in the VIN (glad I caught that before I left the building) etc. Stuff that would make you question if the title was legit, if you didn't know NM MVD was really that bad. I even had one that the title said had 13 million miles on it. Pretty sure it was under 100k.

So I'm wondering, for example, if I had gotten rear ended in my Cutlass, would the insurance company pay the value for an '83 (what the VIN decodes to) or a '93 (what it was registered as due to the MVD typo)?

 

So what happens if ALL the VIN data, and numbers match, but the year is wrong on the title? I know of half a dozen cars that friends have that the year is wrong on thier title, but all numbers match. So if the appraiser is sharp enough to recognise the year discrepency. but all the numbers match, does the insurance co. not pay off?

 

From my experience with interacting with the insurance industry, here is one thing that you can take to the bank: If there is ANY legitimate reason the insurance company can find to not pay out they will. Also from my experience: some in the insurance industry will "find' reasons to not pay out, even when there are none, causing you to have to fight for what your policy stipulates you are entitled to.

Insurance companies (like all publicly traded companies) exist to make money for their shareholders, nothing else. They don't do this by paying it out if they don't have to.

 

Except that every state I'm aware of has oversite over the insurance industry in their state. I see these kinds of comments and to me it's just another person dealing with heresay or they didn't get everything they wanted on their claim. What EXACTLY are you basing this on???


Recently, a guy gets hit in his all original '67 Chevelle SS. "My car was all original!!! I want all NOS parts!!!" . First, if you can find the NOS part, the insurance company wouldn't mind paying for it. How many NOS anything do you thing are available for a '67 Chevelle? Unless you spend 4 days walking Hershey in September or October, not much. This is why the aftermarket industry has popped up. It's also why in insurance policies have the Like, Kind and Quality clause exists. It means that I can get Reproduction (aftermarket) or good used parts.

Just about the only thing that an insurance company will deny a claim on is fraud. What is a car with a VIN that doesn't match? FRAUD!!! This was the main reason why I brought this tread back up. More know it alls suggesting it's all right to swap VINs, or to buy a title as if no one will check it out. Again, as an insurance appraiser, the very first this I check (and take a picture of) is the VIN.

This is the VIN on a car that had the VIN painted over so know one would be able to verify it verses the faulty 6 cylinder title. The problem is that the cowl tag shows that this is a 8 cylinder car (427)!!!





Now who's the bad guy? Me, because I see the problem the insurance company shouldn't have to deal with? Or the owner who went and bought a title because he bought the car without one? By the way, the owner got paid when he cleared up his paperwork. The car had it's original 350 in the car.

Again, I have NEVER, in the 26 years I've been in this business, had an insurance company I've worked for, either directly or as one of my clients, ever tell me how to write an estimate. I DO point out title problems, mechanical problems, risk problems (nitrous, no garage, etc.) that affect my client. I've also pointed out to customer and client if a car was under insured ('68 Corvette roadster with a 427 insured for $16K???) so the insured was covered fairly. I'd like to think no one in my business, especially in dealing with vintage cars, wakes in the morning and thinks, "Who can I screw today???"

 

I think he means "state" as used in "Church vs State".