Another Serial Number Lesson Learned

Toronto is in the State of Confusion...

Just kidding. Canada has it's own way of administering their insurance programs. I've also never looked at a car for a Canadian insurance company, even in the US. The only car I actually looked at in Canada was for a Michigan company and because the car wasn't driveable and that was in Windsor.

I've said this more than once, local government rules. If that happens to be Ontario, so be it. Most insurance companies in the US are national or regional. This is especially true with vintage cars. It doesn't change the fact that most adjusters/appraisers will document the car before they do anything else. Yeah, there are some lazy types that do this job, and there are others they take it seriously and do the job they were hired for.

 

Thank you for the info Swifster

 

The funny thing about re-reading this thread today, was two lines up was a thread titled "historical documents for sale".

 

So legal that many states won't honor an Alabama title without doing a complete VIN inspection, if they'll honor it at all. Many states look at an Alabama title as a red flag.

 

Just saw this. There's no problem. This is just a quirk in the history of vehicle registration. Many states titled a car based on the year the car was sold. As an example, there is more than one '63 Studebaker Avanti titled as a 1962. I've looked at a few cars that were titled as such and just noted the year difference between what was sent as an assignment (a 1940 Plymouth that was actually a '41). The car was totaled, he was paid and there was no problem.

 

Wow, the salesman even used a time machine!

 

Swifster; What happens in Florida where the state only recognizes the engine numbers and could care less what is on the frame on vehicles manufactured before 1955?

 

in the state of kentucky i have done just this. riveted a non original serial number tag on a car infront of a county sheriff. he gives me a thumbs up and a piece of paper saying he was a witness. all is legal. ive stamped frames also infront of a sheriff and if used engraved tags from trophy shops. kentucky is wonderful. love this state. srry california. tuff luck.

must cars i do this to is missing the original tag. or is customized to the max. thus i need a vin tag.

ive have had claims before thru state farm and they have never questioned the vin numbers. mostly they are like damn what a shame.

 

That sux, When i went to buy a bike one time the numbers did not match the guy was pissed and his wife even more mad he said he just bought it and did not put it in his name. Needless to say i didint get that bike...

 

A friend of mine did a 'glass Deuce roadster, and when it was time to register, I went with him to the DMV. He had kept a VERY detailed build book including documents, photos, etc. The process went very smoothly and he was even complimented on his thoroughness. Ultimately detail is your friend.

 

I just love this thread, as I have stated before I also own an appraisal company. As you do, my first concern is the serial number matching the number as issued on the title (ownership as we call it) a non-original number tag is acceptable as long as it is permanently affixed to the frame or body it must match the number on the document. Photos of both are taken and submitted to the insurance company with the valid appraisal. Keep in mind that not all appraisers are accepted by the insurance companies so a check with your company prior to appraisal is a wise move. This why I cannot understand why an insurance Co. like Haggarty can insure car a WITHOUT an appraisal. How do they know the value of it and how do they know what in the hell they are insuring. An appraisal is protection for the car owner and the Insurer. The DOT has also given our Association members the ability to change any corrections on the ownership document such as typographical errors after identifying the correct serial number on the vehicle. This was to save on costly lawyers fees.

An IMPORTANT FACT get you paper work in order before you start the build you will save yourself a lot of head aches as well as tax money.

I think all you guys should move to Ontario, Canada.

See photo of a typical acceptable serial number tag.

 

This isn't true. I've looked at numerous cars built before 1955 that are titled with the vehicle serial number (A-pillar, door, body floor panel, seat risers, etc.). Certain cars at certain times used the engine numbers as the serial number, even into the 1950's (I think Cadillac did this).

The most important thing to do before going to your DMV (or Tax Collectors Office) is to have all your ducks in a row. That car be literature such as service manuals, serial number guides, or something else that shows how cars were identified, photos of the numbers on the vehicle, etc. If you car how the car is titled, you need to build a case for what you want.

The title from CA when I bought my Studebaker listed the serial number as 64-I5XXX. On the plate on the car, Studebaker used an 'I' as a '1'. The build sheet showed this as a '1'. This is how I wanted the title to read, or 64-15XXX. I went to the DMV (Secretary of State) with the title, my VIN guide and the build sheet. No problem, not even a VIN inspection.

Let's face it. Most cars from before 1955 are tooling around with an engine other than what came in it. It would be hard for any state to use engine numbers in this day and age. But many, including some TC offices use this as a reason to inspect the car, issue a state VIN, or charge taxes higher than what should be charged.

 

To you and I, that Avanti would always be a 1963. But because the car was sold in September of 1962, the state considered it a 1962. This is also how you get 1964 Mustangs...

 

Good info. Thanks for posting this up

 

It's nice if a state is easy. I would like to assume that the VIN plate issued by the state along with some paperwork from the Sheriff's office. I had to do this with a '69 Plymouth Valiant. I had the Detroit Police Department inspect the car, and the same cop was their with the replacement VIN. To guard against being charged with fraud, I kept the paperwork from the police with the title. Most states are not as easy though.

As for State Farm, if you took the paperwork away, they have no idea what they are looking at. Bad for them. It's not my job to tell the insurance company to pay a loss. It's my job to let them know if something isn't right. Guys/Gals who deal with these types of vehicles on a regular business know what and where the serial number looks like.

 

Cadillac most books say to check the engine number, but said number was also stamped into the frame, and by 1959 if not before they had a tag in the door jam. The whole engine number as a serial/VIN thing comes from the Model T, which only had a number on the engine and nothing else.

 

exactly!!! :d

 

Dude..

You've got the numbers backward.

How could a car built in 1963 be sold in 1962?

 

Thanks for the info my friend. The is an old saying being for warn is being for armed.

 

I always get asked what I'm doing when I get a picture of the VIN, build tag or decal (if one exists), the odometer and license plate as well as all 4 corners before I get a picture of the damage. It's called documentation! It's all part of proving the loss to the insured vehicle.

As for Hagerty and Grundy, they do have underwriters that are supposed to specialize in vintage cars. You still can't be right all the time just looking at pictures.

The picture you posted is OK to a point. Some guys just buy a title and attach a plate. Again, I've seen cars titled one way with a serial number such as this affixed to the car, but it's not hard to tell the difference between a '68 Cadillac DeVille and a '69 DeVille. Or as mentioned by someone else stated earlier, a '59 Impala and a '60 Biscayne.

Now, as far as Ontario is considered, it's a nice place to visit (in the summer), but I wouldn't want to shovel snow there...

 

I might be wrong, but I think the last year Cadillac only put a number on the engine was 1950. I believe the '51's got A-pillar plates along with the engine.

 

So, on my 27 Modified T, with a 53 flathead v8, what should I have on the car for a VIN? It's titled as a 27 T (which the body is)

 

The VIN on the frame. And if you used the frame from an 'A', you really have an 'A'.

 

'47 or '48 hearse we sold a few years ago had the number also stamped, right frame rail on top near the A-arm mount. 59-60 tags are just bizzarre. I don't remember if I looked for a tag on the '55 we sold, been too long.

 

It's not just Alabama titles - every state I have ever lived in (and I'm betting most, if not all states), require a VIN inspection on anything with a title from out of state.

 

Thanks for the info. FL. use to only recognize the engine numbers only on pre 1956 vehicles. I looked it up after your statment and it now says vin or engine numbers on 1955 and older. Just last year I bought a 39 ford out of state and had to go thru the engine thing with the DMV. The first old car I brought into this state that I built they made me do a change of motor certificate. A inspector came to my house and looked the car over and made me install a new FL assigned vin plate in front of him. Same as they did for a totaled car. I am glad they changed it.

 

About 5 months ago I took a 28 Dodge coupe to the DMV in Pensacola. It didn't have a motor in it, but it clearly had a number stamped in the frame which I looked up and verified that it was infact an original factory stamping. They would not accept that number but could assign it a "public vin number". It was relatively easy and painless until they put the "vin sticker" on it. Yep you guessed it. It was in fact a plastic or vinyl sticker that they made. It had the Public VIN on it and a Bar code too. You might say what was the problem? One, I had not painted it yet. When I ask about that problem and what to do when I painted it they just shrugged. Two, I still had a Florida license and was moving to Ft Worth. When I painted it would I leave the old paint alone or possibly damage it. How would I replace it in Texas. To this point I had no money in the process. Since Florida has gone sky high with all their fees I decided not to title it in Florida. I pulled the sticker and was about to title it in Texas when I had the opportunity to buy my 41 Plymouth coupe back so I sold it to a guy in northwest Arkansas. I had a Florida title to the 41 in my name. Since I have been reading this thread I called the shop in Milton Florida that is media stripping the car and ask him to verify numbers. No tags have a number to match the title so he is looking at the original engine numbers for me. It won't have that motor long so now I still have to hassle with Texas when I title it here.

 

Some states are more lax than others. The only reason I had a 'VIN' inspection on my Valiant was because I was trying to replace a VIN plate. I had the correct title, and the car was correct. Other than that, I never had a VIN inspection the entire 26 years I had my Michigan license.

 

Document all your numbers anyway. Good, clear pictures of the engine number, body numbers and if so stamped, frame numbers. It will only protect you. Don't pitch the engine until the car is completed and registered. If the frame is stamped, cut out the stamping and weld it into the frame.

 

I've seen a few threads where this might come in handy again...Bump