...and you only get half as much wire, with the long piece now being cardboard! As for hardness take a piece of hay wire and a piece of coat hangar and wrap it around something, then release it. The coat hangar, being more rigid, will straighten out more than the hay wire because it's harder, has more steel alloy in it. A hay wire weld will be softer, easier to hammer than coat hangar.
someone mentioned grinding the welds,get a quality 6 inch flap disc for an angle grinder, does a great job on welds.
What you don't get is what I'm saying is from factual experience. I'm wondering why you can't understand that. I didn't say anything about cooling cycle. I don't cool ANY of my welds with anything. I just let them cool naturally. When a weld is allowed to cool slowly without quenching it doesn't 'temper' as you say, it is termed 'normalized'. "Annealed" is a term that means the metal or gl*** is heated to a high temperature and allowed to cool slowly, which doesn't mean it's softer than it normally is, it means it is 'less brittle', when the brittleness was caused by 'tempering' or 'work hardening'. Bailing wire is soft by nature because it is iron wire, with very little alloy. Your "theories" about all that just don't prove out when OA welding with hay wire. The weld is soft, by nature of the fact of the composition of the wire. After welding with bailing wire, the weld is naturally softer than any MIG wire I have ever seen, hence easier to hammer. Period.
No, you are incorrect. It's the composition(recipe) of the product that determines hardness. The iron wire is softer by nature than steel wire. Pure iron can't be 'tempered' by heat, even though it can work harden. It also gets harder in a weld due to the extent of mixing with the parent metal, and if quenched it will be harder than if it is allowed to cool slowly(annealed), but annealed don't mean it's dead-soft, just normalized to it's softest state. Bailing wire has very little alloy in it, hence it doesn't harden as much as steel MIG wire when welded, try it, you'll like it. As you learn, your knowledge should improve your product. That is good. Of course, the weld will be a mix of parent metal and fill rod. With an old sheet-metal like my ’29 where it is composed of more iron, characteristics will differ from more modern car sheet metal where the steel content is higher. A fill rod starved weld will be harder than one where an abundance of fill is used, ***uming you use soft iron wire. Your opinion that “Professional Restoration” is superior to “body and fender hack work “ is merely showing your ignorance. That is, ***uming you really believe that. I know “shade-tree” mechanics that will run circles around “Professional Restorers”. Get a grip. As for using hay-wire or store bought wire: that’s got as much to do with anything as the price of one hill of beans. If you are suggesting that free wire is inferior to expensive wire with a designation that you got at a welding supply store, then you are not as intelligent as I first presumed. Anyhow, I have to go have some fun, do some realistic body work on the Nash Hot Rod. Goodbye Chad s, forever. Edit: I just have to comment on the following reply from Chad S because it's off the mark, Don't want this to go back to the top for further argument, just to set the record straitht; Chad s says in the next post, "Well, I wouldn't be putting any pure iron wire into the panels on my car. Im not a hack, I try to use the best materials I can find, and do a quality job." My reply to that is that earlier car body and fenders were mostly iron with mimimal alloying. When welding them with soft wire they are plyable and dolly more easily than with more modern fenders with a higher steel content. Welding them with steel wire in a mig makes them brittle at the weld boundary and they have tendency to work harden and crack again, that's why I prefer to use soft wire to weld them. When welding with any wire, the weld will be a mix of the fill rod and the parent metal, therefore the finished weld will tend to take on the characteristics of the parent if the puddle is kept large and the wire dipped into the puddle. If the weld is more fill with minimal puddle keeping the fill in the edge of the flame, and a lot of fill is used, the reverse is true. The term 'hay wire' is a generic one, you can buy soft iron wire at any hardware store. The way to tell it is soft is it tends to cling to the stick it's wrapped around. I have fenders on '29 chevy that I patched with soft wire 5 years ago, have over 7,000 miles on them and have no reoccurring cracking. .
Well, I wouldn't be putting any pure iron wire into the panels on my car. Im not a hack, I try to use the best materials I can find, and do a quality job. O, and Flux core MIG for body panels, I think you have proven why people shouldn't be taking sheet metal welding advice from you! Goodbye as well!
I think if you want a true 100% metal worked panel gas would be the way to go with tig being right behind it. Problem is 99% of panels require some sort of filler applied in the form of plastic or lead. I think everyone would love to say their car is 100% metal but then you should talk to their painter who just skimmed their entire car with 1/8 of plastic before blocking it. Look in current issue of RJ with the 2 32's in bare metal. If you look close there are areas that will require filler and I would say they have a good amount of metal work done to them. unless you are doing the metal to paint application I say there will be some sort of filler either in a heavy primer surfacer,lead or plastic. Car's that were done in the 50's might have tons of nice metal work but most of their paint jobs would not be considered straight by todays standards. Has anybody tried silicone bronze wire for a mig? If I am remembering correctly it is a softer??? weld?? Always something to learn here. Thanks!!!
Haven't seen silicone bronze in a MIg wire roll, only for TIG. Its more of a brazing type filler rod, that flows very nicely. I have used it a little just to try it, but have not had a true use for it yet. It may be good for an area that would benefit from less heat because of poor access to the back side of the panel.
I used a lot of silicone bronze in the 90's on a Dodge truck program. Both tig and mig. You can get it in a mig roll. I used the mig mainly for tacking then came back with the tig. Ron Covell did a metal workshop at my facility in Ft. Smith back then and he has become somewhat of a believer in silicone bronze. You can google 'ron covell silicone bronze' and get a few hits.
Well some progress to report. I spent the last couple of hours gas welding some 18 gauge. I really like it and the beads are pretty respectable looking. I am a little worried about the resulting warpage as I don't yet have the tools or experience to fix it. I also mig welded two pieces together about 3/8" at a time trying to hammer weld as I went. That did not produce the best results as far a flexibility when cooled which I expected. I also welded two more pieces together running 1 inch beads with the mig and grinding the top of the bead flat when finished, I then went over it with the oxy/acy running a puddle across the mig weld with no filler rod. let completly cool and ground flush. Although more flexible I still have very small cracking around where the bead was. I'm thinking the best bet may be to just fit and tack weld my panels together for now until I can get a Tig.
You are going to get a fair bit of distortion from the TIG as well not as much as Gas but still. I would work on your panel finishing skills and worry less about the type of welding as you are going to need to be proficient at dealing with the warpage no matter what welding process you use. I would highly suggest investing in a shrinking disk if you are going to be doing alot of sheetmetal work. John Kelly who has posted on this thread sells them with a short DVD. Best sheetmetal tool I have ever invested in and very inexpensive. Good luck with it.
Are you actually saying that metal finishing is B.S. ? I am pretty sure that there are more guys out there fabing things with no "filler,bondo,skim" other than .030-.040 of copper, and having their parts chromed. These DB-6 bumpers are torch welded and metal finished. Doug. P.S sorry Nocero, just had to reply to this misinformation.
Thanks K13 I plan to get a shrinking disk soon I'll get in touch with Mr Kelly Beautiful work Marshall Can you give me some details on exactly how a shrinking disk works?
Yeah it's basically a thin stainless steel disk with a slightly beveled edge. You put it on a grinder and then run it on the high spots of the panel you are working on for a few seconds, which heats the panel, then you quench it with water and voila the metal shrinks. It is a much easier to control process than shrinking with a torch a little slower but I find that good as you can sneak up on the repair with less chance over over shrinking. I have only used mine for one thing as I just got it but I cannot imagine not having it now.
you've got to be careful using that shrinking disc. practice on an old fender or something else you can get a hold of. its very easy as a beginner to over work the metal with it but once you've straightened a few panels that thing works wonders.
I tack everything together, and hammer the tacks so everything is straight. You can really tack with any mothod, TIG, MIG, Gas. I then gas weld about 3/4" at a time, and then hammer out the distortion, and then move to another 3/4". It really helps keep everything under control. If you tacked with MIG, be sure to bring the MIG tacks into the molten puddle when you gas weld (we dont need to go into annealing cycles anymore on this thread!) I cut a hood on my 47 ford into many pieces and gas/hammer welded it back this way, and in the end had every little metal work to do, only a few high spots I took down with a shrinking disc. If I had just gas welded the whole entire thing and then addressed the warpage, I think I would have been totally screwed! Im sure some people can go about it that way, but it would scare the heck out of me.
sounds like it would work to me my dad migs everything to the point of there are a couple of cracks hear and there and then he tigs it but tig and torches are vary similar so i would say yes
Practicing on an old fender is a great idea, but the shrinking disc is a tool you do not have to be careful about over working the metal with. Once you start using one, you will come to realize that you no longer have to tread lightly... or worry about over working metal with a hammer and dolly either. You can work the metal in the same spot dozens of times without hurting it. If your hammer and dollies have nice smooth surfaces, and you have a shrinking disc, you can go back and forth between over-stretching and over-shrinking multiple times until you get it just right. This is the easiest way to learn metal-finishing that there is. Anyone who takes the time to practice using a few simple tools can learn to do filler free work. It is also the closest thing you will ever get to annealing sheet metal without a controlled environment. Here is an experiment I did to see how much you can use a shrinking disc in one spot. It is a fender that I way over-stretched on purpose and then shrunk back down with dozens of applications of a shrinking disc: http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=9980124046566 Have a gander at the parts 8-12 of Custom Metal Bodywork in my signature line for metal-finishing. Once you have some practice with the right tools, you can do perfect metal work with a ballpeen hammer, a bent piece of flat bar for a ******* and another bent piece of flat bar with extra weight added for a dolly, and a sauce pan lid for a shrinking disc. No magic, no unattainable super duper grand master metal shaper wizardry, just a little bit of knowledge and some practice. John www.ghiaspecialties.com
Hi Tim, When gas welding, make sure you have a small tip (00, or 000, my favorite). Make sure your tip is clean. Without a clean tip, you will most likely not get a good weld The weld puddle should look gl***y, not bubbly, no popping, and very little or no hissing. If you have a flat piece of steel plate and a body hammer, you have the right tools to practice your gas welding. You can weld a few inches, turn off your torch and then lay your metal upside down on the steel plate. Stretch the weld with the body hammer. Smooth the area a few inches on either side of the weld with the hammer. This is the same thing you do with a hammer and dolly. Here is an article I wrote a few years ago about gas welding (sorry, the gas and mig comparison is a broken link): http://metalshapers.org/101/jkelly/index.html John www.ghiaspecialties.com
I have a opinion on this subject but I think I will keep this one to myself. Last time I got involved in a ******* match thread I think I lost and my left leg is still wet. good luck
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