Are traditional hot rods and Customs too perfect now?

More a less everything looks the same a copy of a copy,,when you see the prices of these cars ,,ain't a damn thing traditional about that. It's overkill anymore,,It's like these things should be at Sotheby's or behind some glass in a museum.

I think most of the blame ( if thats the correct word to use ) is on the technology available nowadays to actually build a car. I mean the time and money some of these have into them is unrealistic. I don't see it as 'hobby' anymore

 

Is this a new build to faithfully duplicate the look, a rebuild of a "old Hot Rod"? I cant tell. I certainly would not change anything.

 

Let's not forget, the Chrisman coupe was built as a radical race car, not a street driven cartoon car. There have been many radically chopped cars built for LSR use in recent years and I don't hear them being bad mouthed, rather celebrated for taking the rule book to the limit in the name of speed, not posing at a cruise night.

 

If I was the guy paying for a sign with crooked letters in the '50s, I'd be pissed.

If I would find one now, I'd think it adds so its Character.


I'm not even sure that makes any sense or not...

Maybe its because it has been around for a long time, it has earned the right to stay that way.

 

I get all that...
I just still don't see much of a difference...

What I've seen in the last few years is guys just looking for rarer and rarer parts regardless of the look or functionality and invariable it's the guys with the super deep pockets who eventually 'win' those battles...
Then those guys go and buy a brookville 32 roadster body and frame and slap as much rare shit on there as possible...

I think this misses the point of traditional rodding almost as much as skulls and Iron Crosses do...

And as to vintage fashions, my wife still looks for vintage Shaheen etc all the time... So you'd be wrong there...

And she doesn't see much difference in it either... Other than my VINTAGE HOT ROD FASHIONS TM are way more expensive.

I still like cool old parts but I think that particular quest has gotten a little out of hand... I just think next time I'm going to do it different.

 

My car is what keeps me sane. It will probably never be finished as it is a diversion from the everyday stresses of the times. These are the interesting times referred to in the old curse..."May you like in intersting times".

My 32 Brookville was built by a committee. It was ergonomicly horrible to drive when I bought it. Now it's a pleasure to drive. I am gong through it system by system to make a very enjoyable daily driver. It will never be of the quality of the high end cars. It does make me happy.

Paint has never been high on my list. Surely it will show up later but sound engineering and fabrication are things I am learning as I go.

This forum has been an invaluable source of expertise and I thank you all for your time and input.

Bill

 

Maybe it's called "aura"..from a time some of us lived through but all of us treasure. New rods are neat but old timers are special.

 

Ah, the elusive butterfly. I wrote to the GG Gazette about 15 years ago when the question came up about how far do you go when building your car. Seems some woman had written in and said that she and her husband no longer enjoyed ther rod because they had kept making improvement upon emprovement on it to the point that they were now afraid to drive the car.

I wrote in and said that they were chasing the elusive butterfly, the perfect car. When they got there they couldn't do anything but trailer the car and polish it all the time. My advice to her was to sell the car and build a beater and go back to having fun.

Are they too perfect today? Only if you have too much money to throw away and don't drive your rod or custom daily.

 

Kinda like Pam Anderson...damn sexy naturally but keeps bolting on and pumping this and pumping that to where she looks like alogo on a mudflap on a big rig...ya gotta know when to stop and enjoy and appreciate it for what it is...not perfect but nothing is

 

If your car is what you want it to be and you're happy with it, does that not make it perfect? I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. For every compliment I get on my car, my head swells with all the stuff wrong with it or the stuff that still needs attention, but I say thanks and let it go. There are those that will never be finished and can never have their ride "perfect" to them. You may look at an absolutely stunning car and not find a single line or part out of place, but the builder may see it completely different and see where maybe they could have spent a little more time and changed this line a little more.
Any car that makes it's owner happy is perfect. Not everyone will agree on what that is, but I'm not in the habit of building a car to impress others. I make it how I want it, if others like it, great, if not, no biggie, it's not their car. It's not about the correct vintage parts or the old school techniques used to build, it's whether or not the owner is satisfied with the end result.

 

i`m probably not as qualified to answer this post as most as i`m not a native of the country where hot rods were invented...but my take on it is `yes` they are too perfect now...`but`...compared to what....the cars we all love and cherish from the past are the cars that stood out...theres no way that every hot rod created `back in the day` was a showstopper, a tommy foster roadster, a mcgee roadster etc, etc for all those ones we remember i bet there was a pile of shite hiding somewhere...the tools, the paint, the facilities...shit practically everything we have nowadays to produce these cars eclipses anything they had back in the `day`..maybe some of the skills are lacking but thats a different story....i remember a thread Nads started quite a few years back asking if the pierson bros coupe was restored to its original state or had it been overdone due to the fact that the tech was there to really go to town for want of a better phrase....in answer to the original question, i dont think we`ll ever know because basically we weren`t there and the guys who were are getting few and far between...just my take on it

 

I have a little different take on this subject. I did my first mild custom in 1958 while I was in high school. Met Tom McMullen and Dick Day in 1959 and started doing free lance stories for R&C and HOT ROD soon after. Back in the day (I hate that term!) we were always looking for the latest styling que from Detroit or seen at racing venues. One of the things I've always loved about the hot rodding hobby is the fact that it is ever changing and fluid. I've been "tweaking" my Zipper Lakester for nine years and it's finally done. Now I'm on to my '29 CCPU.

While I appreciate the classics, I consider the clones as nothing more than a high dollar paint by numbers exercise.

Having lived through the '50's and '60's, the last thing I want to do is recreate an era that was far from perfect. I want my '29 to be better than the Lakester! Fortunately, we have better tools, materials and a place to exchange ideas world wide; the HAMB!

 

Yes.

In some cases.

I certainly prefer them done that way.

Ideally. And before you paint it, be sure to block it out with sandpaper on a block of wood, preferably three times.

Remember though, even after you get all of those details right, the car will still be far from perfect. That's just the way it is.

True perfection cannot be achieved in the material world.














Well, actually it did happen once.

 

It's like the original Mona Lisa or the paint by numbers clone. Clones, as well built as they may be, don't have blood. sweat and original thinking of the artist who had to knoodle out the answers to the problems, then crafted it the first time.

 

I dont think theres such thing as traditional rods being too perfect today, maybe they just evolved... I dont really know cause a nice hot rod is a nice hot rod, but i can see where the line is blurred between them. Recently while switching some pictures over to my lap top, i was going through model a pictures and i skipped a lot because they were all the same just different colors haha. same stance, flathead, 4 inch chop etc... I dont reallt know what im gettin at, and this isnt really about high dollar or not, but i can definatly say that in america we sorta lost site of what its all about, using what you have... ANd i dont mean cobbling together some peice of shit "Rat Rod" TM or whatever, i mean just thinking outside of the box, thinking of different ways to do whats already been done. Its so easy just to order parts on line or buy them from someone across the country... Thats why i can get into some european builds so much. Parts are much more scarce over there, that you see some real inginuity and a lot of new ideas, but they are every bit as traditional as any other traditional rod here in the states or even back in the day... Of coarse there are a lot of builders here that know where its at too. The Tardels, Zach Suhr, Mel Stultz, and even the author of this thread himself just to name a few... In the end its really all about having a lot of fun and driving your car, perfect or not...

 

I think you have hit on an interesting subject, and many of the above have answered in a manner I think makes sense.

I do think that the finish of modern traditional cars is a bit perfect, but look at the time we live in, where the cars and other appliances that are popped out have tolerances in their construction that people 50 years ago couldn't have even dreamed about (actually they did, it was just called science fiction).

The modern traditional car picks up on some of these modern predilections (excellent gaps, beautiful detail). And as mentioned above, there were cars that were pretty close to perfect "back in the day", but there were also cars that were not finished and many in between. It depended much on its finished use or how much cash you had. A lot of guys who had what we would call a traditional car, used it to get back-and-forth to work. Some drag raced their daily drivers on weekends pulled the motor on Sunday and back to work Monday. There wasn't always an opportunity to 'finish' their cars.

I would say that today's traditional cars (and this is in no way trying to be derogatory) are homages to what used to be, even the restorations of our most prized historical cars. They evoke a time, but employ a level of craftsmanship that was rarely achievable in the infancy of our hobby. This is good in some respects, as it allows us to see the history that we have.

I think perhaps another question is so we need to care about whether or not they are too perfect? I think the answer would be no.

The car that we have pictured in our minds eye, perfect or not, is the car we would want it to be. Not what someone else wants or even thinks is nice. It can have as many or as few resemblances as we want - to whatever you might want - tasteful or not. I think the point is that it is what you want in the end.

In the end that little bit of unfinished can be good. I love looking at the pin-striping on my car, it is done by a master, it is as close to perfect as can be attained by a human. But its the imperfections that make it perfect, the originality and individuality of it that makes one want to attain it.

One would hope that we want to attain the same in our cars.

 

"too perfect" is subjective. I personally prefer a car to be "just right".

Its a shame that nowadays someone cant build the car they want, they gotta build the car everyone else thinks they should in order to be appreciated.

 

i've always liked little asymmetry here and there - cars and otherwise. ...but there's a fine line between intentional imperfection and carelessness.

 

I would say there are more people doing better restorations and recreations of "perfect" traditional hot rods now than there was ever built back in the 50's and 60's...

But in their quest for perfection... they are missing the mark.

When we used to show our Model A at the national level, the judges called it "over restoration".

But that only has to deal with the fit and finish.

I think there are two distinct areas when considering your use of the word "perfect".

You have the "perfect" selection of parts... and the "perfect" execution of the assembly of those parts.

In the "selection" of parts... you have your basic California Hot Rod...

It's a '32 or '29 on '32 rails, flathead motor, '39 box, '40 steelies, bias ply Firestones, banjo rear and a decent paint job and tuck and roll upholstery. The exhaust will run under the car, unless your interpretation is influenced by Speedway Motors and you run the exhaust outside the chassis.

And then you have the "perfect"... and if you're a magazine writer, you'll use that dead horse of a phrase "quintissential hot rod".

It's the same as above... but you add ALL the rare parts. The Culver City quck change, Kinmont brakes, winter grill, 25 louver hood, Bell steering wheel, SW curved glass gauges, '36 torque tube (drive shaft) headers, Block letter Edelbrock heads and slingshot manifold, Stromberg '48 carbs with Stellings air cleaners, Harmon Collins magneto, 3.5" '40 Ford solids and 5" Lincoln solid rims and some radiator cap that nobody has ever seen... It also goes without saying that you will have period and restored license plates a AAA license plate frame and some neat-o license plate topper...

Perfect? Not to me.

Now what about the execution of those parts?

"Period perfect" would mean that it has a decent paint job, a touch of chrome on some of the parts, the body is left stock and may have some of the imperfections that ti left the Ford factory with... bottom line, it's built to the best of the abilities of a home builder... and not something that was farmed out and ready for Pebble Beach. All the elements would be in the right spot... headlights and front end "too high", windshield not chopped enough etc, etc...

Now if the execution is "perfect"? You either have a lot of time, or deep pockets... and either way, it's NOT period perfect.

You spend 20+ grand on paint and body work... everything is either polished, plated or painted. The door gaps, hood gaps and fit of the deck lid are perfect. You "correct" those things that Ford did wrong... It's generally a car that is a show car, not a driver. Then you "tweak" the elements to "look right".

I know of one very historic hot rod... everyone's favorite, that was restored at a very prominant hot rod shop. I have my suspicions that the shop lowered the grille shell a tad so it lined up with the cowl... just like they do on all their other "customer cars".

SoCal did it with the Pierson Brother's Coupe... they dropped the front end more that it was originally... "because it looks better"...

Cars can delve into each one of these categories at different degrees. It's all based on the owners abilities and/or finances.

Traditional cars that are overdone... delve into BOTH categories... ALL THE WAY.

Why? Because people can.

Traditionally, hot rodding is a competetive hobby... the people who are setting the trends are trying to out do the guy at the top. This is an undeniable FACT about hot rodding. YOU might not be that way, but there are people who ARE that way.

And those people are the ones who put the First '29 A roadster body on a '32 chassis, the FIRST to put '40 Ford wheels on a highboy roadster, the FIRST to put two engines in a car, the FIRST to build a rail job, the FIRST to put two carburetors on a motor for more power, the FIRST to put a SBC in a hot rod, they are the ones who put the FIRST A/C system in a hot rod, the FIRST to put power windows and steering in a hot rod and wanted to win the AMBR trophy, the NHRA finals, the Riddler Award and the list goes on and on...

And now, with traditional hot rods gone mainstream in the hot rodding community, the movers and shakers have gobbled up the cars with history and have either preserved them (thank you) and/or have restored them to "perfection"...

Not ALL have been preserved or restored... there's always middle ground...

And now that the majority of the pedigree'd hot rods are spoken for... the movers and shakers are moving onto brookville bodied cars replicated to be "perfect" traditional hot rods.

Is it a crime? No. Is it "too perfect"... in some respects, yes. But that is up to the individual hot rodder and what they are about.

I for one have been around near perfect restorations all my life. I have broke bred and gotten in the minds of the guys who have built these cars. The bar we call perfection has gotten higher and higher and higher over the years.

In some respects, guys who build restored stockers are very similar to guys who restore/recreate hot rods.

Some people forget to take in consideration the technology of the time frame they are working with when building the "period perfect" restored/recreated hot rod.

I am assuming that you are posting this question because you are contemplating how far you want to take your own project, Kevin. I may be wrong.

How much is too much?

With respect to your own car and the uniqeness of the build, coupled with your abilities as a hot rod builder... your project will more than likely end up "period perfect". But even if you strive for perfection in the fit and finish, your abilities and pocket book will prevent it from becoming "perfect".

 

personally, i find a lot of cars being built today boring,,,many (not all) of the kustoms being do not have very many original ideas (lots of folks are fine with this,,,and thats ok,,this is basically MY opinion),.....yes, there are some things you almost have to do (lowering, shaving, nose/deck, www's, etc),,,but as far as originality of design,,,that seems to be kinda rare these days,,,dont get me wrong,,,id rather look at one of these cars any day than look at a "street rod",,i understand it's pretty hard to be original, as many things have been already done,,personally, i ve had some ideas i thought were original, only to see something similar in the little books,,,it can be very difficult to be original AND period correct at the same time,,my car has evolved and has been tweaked MANY times in its relatively short construction period,,,even today, i decided to make some more major changes that i feel will knock peoples socks off,,,to me that's what its all about,,being original, yet tasteful, doing something new and original yet making it look as if it could have been an idea from back then,,, changing something to improve the flow and design,,not changing something just to say you changed it,,,

 

Good thread.

I can only add what happened to me when building the coupe. In the beginning, I had a blurry vision of what I wanted it to look like...a primered, bare bones, badass stanced, rolling bones style coupe. Half race car, half daily driver.

I didn't want a perfect car...I wanted something that looked like it was built back then by a young man returning from the war.

What happened to me is what a lot of us go through...'creeping elegance' set in...

You really don't realise it at first..."Can we get those door gaps tighter?"..."This panel needs to be straighter."...and before you know it, the car now owns YOU, and you begin to make every little part as nice as the next to make it perfect. It becomes a disease.

It never seemed to stop...finally I just pulled back on the reigns and said 'enough'.

The coupe was sold because it became something that I didn't want it to be. My next car will be what the first car should have been.

 

I think some people take forever to "finish" a car because they keep seeing a flaw or two just when they thought they reached the end. This happened to my Dad on his current rod project, a couple hits like that, and he lost interest, because he wanted a perfect "showcar" finish. It's been tore down for 15 years now..he's finally said F@#k it and is putting it together as a unfinished driver.
On the other hand, I think we've all seen the cars that came out a little to early, and should have had a few more parts put on before they left the garage...

 

You've opened up a question of personal perspective. Will any two people agree? Yes. Any Three? Maybe. Four? Definitely not- so with 50K members here expect this post to become very lengthy

I love Sam!!! I know that all came right off the top of his head- but it reads like a piece that would take me a week to write. And I don't even know how to spell quintisential or epitomy (bot SIC)! Jim

 

I personally don't want a perfect car. To me it starts to lose some of the soul and life that an old hotrodder would have put into the car. I so want to be like the old hotrodders that I want to be true to their ambition and goals.

It's too hard to put into words my feelings. I love to look at the perfect ones and envy their talents but I'd be scared shitless to drive one. I want to have fun with it and not have to pamper it. I will admit that the old hotrodder that put the 50 Poncho tail lights in my roadster was off by a 1/4". I corrected his minor error.

When I did the sport coupe , I purposely left some divots that are very obvious. I'm sure some think I was blind but it's how I want it.

 

Simple fact is, the only people who can really appreciate hot rods are the people who build them and drive them.
With so much of your soul invested, driving is the ultimate reward.

I work on my 31 a couple hours at a time 4-5 days a week and even though I enjoy the build process, I'm looking forward to driving it even more.

It'll be like the 32 in that it had paint etc. and was pretty much a finished car when I backed it out of the garage.

I do enjoy tinkering and changing small things, but it still looks pretty much like it always did.

The 31 on 32 rails roadster will be much the same.
If it drives, handles as well as the 32 and is as dependable I'll be happy.
With 48,000 miles and 14 years with the 32 and only stopped once by a dead electric fuel pump I don't hesitate to go a lot of places with it.

Don't see too many changes in the 31's future.
The engine will be a little stronger than the 32, it will weigh 100-200# less and perhaps be a little more trad looking.

Best part of the hot rod biz is simply driving them and with 462" of Buick torque in the 32, it's always fun.
With even more torque scheduled for the 31 - and a locker - even more fun.


Lotta times I get to running around and take off down a two laner just to see where it goes.
One of life's little rewards methinks.

I think it was C-Word who said it quite a few years back . . . the view of the world through the windshield of a roadster is like nothing else.

Nothing else....

 

Wow...Thats a bit of a underhanded compliment...

 

The passing of time and the inerruption of a hundred other trends have narrowed our focus,in an attempt to exclude the influence of the impure.
i think thats the nutshell of it.

 

What do you mean by that?

I'm the same way... couldn't build or afford to build a perfect car if I tried.

Don't think most of us working stiffs could do it either...

In fact, Kevin has the ability and knowledge to build a "period perfect" car... I said so in the sentence before the one you quoted. It's up to him on if he wants to take it that far.

Sam

 

It's hard to know when everything is in perfect Harmony. I've learned some much on my truck. First paint job, fabbing, etc. etc. But as you learn more about the past/history (There is so much to absorb) your ideas get tweaked and refine your thoughts more. But also, building one after another (well me anyways) makes you better the next go around. I won't dare chop my 1940 Mercury coupe, but would on a 30's coupe. My thing right now is the right bolt/fastner. I can't tell you how much of journey it has been for my truck and now 60 Pontiac.

Ken

 

Haven't read all the responses but I really like this point. Even on cars I'm putting back to stock, the internet and the wealth of knowledge and pictures availible let me see how different color combos work, what different options and trim cars had availible, and so on.

I know there have been a few things I was planning to do that I didn't do after seeing how it looked on someone elses car, and other stuff I never would have thought of on my own that I did after seeing someone elses car.

Not to mention the vast amounts of parts now availible with a click of a mouse, not just new repop stuff but good old stuff from the junkyard that some guy in Nebraska has, that I never would have found before, it's all accessible to me now.

As parts and info become more accessible than they ever were, the cars are going to get nicer.