Are traditional hot rods and Customs too perfect now?

The Coonan/Lobeck car as ruined by Bruce Myers comes to mind.

quote=Kevin lee "To pull a question from the beginning. When do you stop? Where do you cross the line from traditional hot rod to Foose concept?"

Does it really matter? If that is what makes the car right for you? I think many are getting way too hung up on some mystical definition and ideal of "Traditional" when there is no absolute definition. Aren't we really just paying homage to a style defined by our own beliefs, ideas, and maybe rose colored glasses? For some it's almost become as silly as the white glove restoration crowd when trying to ascertain what is and isn't correct.

One last thought - years ago i had a friend who's father bought a brand new Corvette for his wife as a birthday present. She was killed by a drunk driver on the way home to the party where she was to be surprised by the car. The dad out a cover on it and left it in the garage for many years. The odo showed 17 miles, the drive home from the dealer. Finally one day the dad decided she would want the car to be seen and enjoyed, so after 20 years he pulled the cover, changed the fluids, fired it up and trailered it to a major corvette show. The "Judges" picked the car apart, telling him everything that was wrong. He just kind of laughed and then showed the documentation that proved the cars originality. With egg on their faces they humbly asked if they could study the car. He said sure. When they were done, He hoped in it and drove it home! The point being, even the so called experts don't always get it right, and that's even more so with 'Traditional Rodding".

 

tim,
i think the guys in the military had the ability to use all the equipment that most of us use now
they had probably better metal shaping quipment but they also had the knowhow to make their own tools for a needed job
i think they built the cars as well as they wanted but didnt know a better was out there...its just influence that makes todays cars better, in my opinion
looking at a chip foose or whoevers car and relaying that minute detailed quality to a period car is drawing influence from a newer time and therefore incorrect
if they had known better they would have built better (better being in the eye of the beholder)
also
as for the TIG
Gas tungsten arc welding (GTAW) had its beginnings from an idea by C.L. Coffin to weld in a nonoxidizing gas atmosphere, which he patented in 1890. The concept was further refined in the late 1920s by H.M.Hobart, who used helium for shielding, and P.K. Devers, who used argon. This process was ideal for welding magnesium and also for welding stainless and aluminum. It was perfected in 1941, patented by Meredith, and named Heliarc® welding. It was later licensed to Linde Air Products, where the water-cooled torch was developed. The gas tungsten arc welding process has become one of the most important.

 

i dont think a custom can be too nice, after all, customs are built mainly for looks. i think alot of hotrods are too nice though...

 

My first time with my first girlfriend was a complete disaster, but I get your point! ha

 

For some reason my eye goes to that lazy door handle.

 

Please do not read my comment as a dig. There are those, you in particular, who would make a tool to do the job. Just like a the guy who lived during the '40's would have toiled away in the dirt floored garage light by only a few light bulbs fore and aft.

Good point that the military's influence/training/tool closet did do a great deal to progress Hot Rodding/Hopping Up cars.

Another example for your comment. There were two roadsters feature in a Rodder's Journal a few issues back (I forgot the issue #).

It was a father/son team from CA. One (the red one) had an SBC and looked like a really nice car.

The other (blue one) was Ardun powered and had a bomber cockpit theme through out. Stunningly detailed and crafted, but somehow not right.

I loved the car and I loved the look, but not once did I think the car was a nostalgic car or a period correct car. It was a new car made to look like an old bomber cockpit. Much like the idea/premise that I think you are talking about.

Anyone who has amassed a reference library to ensure they are staying true and has made their own tools or body panels is someone who "gets it". Whether it is 1908, 1948, or 2008.

Follow up on an idea, having the vision and drive to actually carry it through and get out in garage to get it done and make it look "right" is someone who may not need to follow a trend or make sure they get approval from the masses. The understand what it is to be a hot rodder and to me, it is the attitude that is timeless.

It's great when attitude + ability + desire= equates finished product of an awesome car all come together.

I may have strayed from the original intent of the post. Sorry about that.

 

Yes.
My '30 coupe is, at firstglance, a stock Model A. But it was put together ('restored' does not quite apply as the body was never off the frame) in 1964-65 by a high school vocational shop class and a government clerk who came to hot-rodding without teenage expeprience (me). Now, 40+ years later, it has lots of small dings and dents, stone chips and flaking paint, and the right running board sags at the front. It gets more attention at parades and small shows than do the near-perfect frame-off jobs. "I/my Dad/Uncle Jim had one just like it, but it was green/blue/brown and his had four doors and no top, and maybe it was an Essex (or Whippet or Overland or...) because mine is "the way it was," with a little well-earned character thrown in.
Fearless

 

ABSO-freakin-LUTELY.

 

It's said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So I believe is perfection.
After reading all these great posts Ive come to the conclusion that perfection is a relative term and it depends upon one's point of view. There is no perfect perfection in anything so that puts and end to total perfection for perfectionists. Most of them will tell you it seems like nothing truly satisfies them completely and they always return to their; project, job, lawn, what have you, to do a bit more and make it a bit better.
Then there are those that have built their first right ride and stand back and look at it and see all the flaws yet look at it and say, it's perfect! Why? Because they saw the start through to the finish and now they can enjoy the fruits of their labor.
We can go to a rod event and see upward of 1000 rods and maybe 3-4 of them will really chime our bells to the tune of HOT ROD!!!!!!!!! They will just scream the word out and in those words comes the word, PERFECT!
I believe it varies with each individual even though we might all agree on any given rod, none of us will have the same value of perfection in that particular car. But, as a whole, we can agree that it represents a period perfect piece.
I hope I made some sort of sense.

 

I found this on that Wikkipedia link that was posted...

"Perfect"

1. which is complete — which contains all the requisite parts;

2. which is so good that nothing of the kind could be better;

3. which has attained its purpose.

I had #2 in mind when I wrote that long response... but in reality, when dealing with traditional hot rods (and art, for that matter) #1 and #3 are the ones we really need to apply.

It's quite simple when yout think about it then...

Hot rods can be "perfect" when they have the right parts and attain their purpose.

Lets apply these three definitions to two distinctly different genres of hot rods.

A "traditional hot rod" and "AMBR/Riddler winners" from the past couple of decades or so.

Traditional Hot rods are "perfect" when they have all the right parts, and achieve their purpose.

Their purpose is up to the individual to decide... but I would say their main purpose is to excite a sense of nostalgia in those who can make a connection to the time and place that those types of cars were first built. Age of the person need not be a factor.

AMBR/Riddler award winners are "perfect" because a group of judges who are schooled in that particular contest have decided, by following a set of guidelines, that said winner is the "best" and that nothing in the competition for the year that it won, was better.

You could also apply #2 to some of the cars that are perfect in the detail of fit and finish... but may fall short in their purpose as a hot rod or may not have all the right parts.


In short... I think we call have our own views of what is "perfect"... but if we dig deep enough into what makes us all tick, we'd find that we all use a set of guidelines that are on-par with those three simple definitions.

Where we differ is in the selection of the parts that make up a hot rod... what we feel is "perfect" may not be "perfect" to the next guy... and the purpose of the perfect hot rod... perfect to me may be the ultimate driver, where perfect to you may be a car that never gets driven...

Sam

 

I like that samiam, thats a good way to put it...

 

Kevin:

Funny you mentioned about being happy once it's on the road. I think you're right.

I'm lucky enough to have my dad still around. He got me into old Fords. He's still got his somewhat stock '32 Tudor with a 59 AB.

When I drive that car around, it might as well be the coolest, most period correct thing on the planet. When I'm behind the wheel of that pretty cool '32, I have going through my head is just that.

Not what it isn't or could be. Just I'm lucky enough to be driving around an old car and an old Ford at that.

Driving the car on the road makes a lot of little details we sweated over for weeks go away in seconds.

 

I really think that if it's on the road, and you're happy, it's pretty close to perfect.

Maybe perfect is like hand grenades and horseshoes .......sure seems like it after 9 pages anyway.

 

I like crooked letters.

 

I think you have offered one of the best answers to the question that was presented. Well done.
What an interesting topic for me to follow today. Thanks.

 

Dude... As you may have figured out, I've been struggling with the idea of using a '40 steering box on my 'Spencer inspired' roadster instead of the Schroeder side steering like the original, for about 3 years now...

I've painted myself into a corner with this car... Not only do I worry about how 'perfect' the car is but also how true to the Spencer car do I go...

It's all stupid and becomes even more stupid the longer it takes to get the car on the road...

So use the steering issue as an example...

What would your average hot rodder in the 40's/50's do in my situation?

I think it's pretty clear that if they had a useable 40 Ford box, they'd use that...

But what would Doane Spencer do? He'd clearly go buy a Schroeder steering box and meticulously fab the mounts etc...

But then again Doane was turing a street roadster into a single-purpose race car... Thus Race steering...

He also ran the exhaust through the frame because that was the most direct route out of the car... This also precluded using the traditional frame mounted steering as well...

I think he did this because exhaust gas routing and engine performance was one of the most important things to a race car and he'd figure something else out for the steering.

So how "Perfect" do I go wih a car that's always been intended for the street? Where do I make compramises? How do I stay true to probably my favorite Hot Rod of all time and still make those compramises? Where do the differing purposes of the two cars demand changes?

The answers are "I don't friggin' know!" And "It depends?"

I think the Spencer roadster might be the "Perfect Hi-Boy Roadster"... And I built my car in some ways as a tribute to it and as a way for me to attain a bit of that perfection in my own way.

So striving for "Perfection" is the whole point of this build for me.... Defining my own flavor "Perfection" as I go is one of the challenges....

I've come to realize though, that there are no right answers... And I'm the only one that has to be satisfied with the final product...

So maybe that truth can help you... "Perfection" is up to you... What other builders are doing today doesn't mean a damn thing.

 

I haven't read any of the replies, but here is my take.
It is traditional to try your best. Sometimes and some people nail it dead on. Sometimes it comes out a little off like the lettering on a sign. While one may look "better" than the other, both are correct.
My biggest complaint about the current state of hot rodding is people purposfully doing less than their best in an attempt to look "traditional"
To me traditional hot rodding is more about using old parts, or mostly old parts, and trying your best to put it together.

 

Mini Rant: I for one am already sick and tired of the 'Nouveau Traditionalist' movement - now there's a new phrase for you. When somebody has a bright idea and then every sheep tries to copy it and messes it up because they fail to get the spirit, it becomes a joke. I hate Foose's P32, most anything that comes out of Steve Moal's place - chromed wire mesh, fine wire mesh with chromed edges, chromed freaking faux or real riveted on blisters - it's as bad as the stick on freakin portholes down at Pep Boys- all looks like taco wagons. Perfect? Perfect crap to me. These are for the rappers of the hot rod world - cheap looking, overpriced, tacky trash for taste deprived people who don't know when to stop - when enough is never enough. This is the sort of crap that infests the GNRS - thank goodness for a Don Orosco, a George Poteet/Dave Lane, a Roy Brizio to bring us back to sanity. But the magazinezoids tell us it's beautiful, leading edge and art - yeah right, as if I need some commercial whore of a magazine editor (soul sold out to advertisers) to tell me what to like.

 

Wow this is really hard to put into words I will try to put my thoughts down

No. Traditional hot rods are old hot rods built today (if that makes sense) the essence is same, the formula is the same. Design & stance is what gives a hot rod it's presence. Presence is the end result, good examples are the Doyle Gammell 3w, Bob McGee roadster & Bill Niekamp roadster. The build techniques/tools of the average Joe are far superior to what they were in the old days.This is the only real difference for me, does it make them too perfect, no just safer.

You can go too far like de-burring cast marks. Having every rare part you can think of on single car eg S.Co.T. Supercharger, Ardun heads, Kinmont brakes, H&C mag, Auburn dash, Zephyr taillights, Guide headlights etc.

Why do a mod? what is the reason? why did Barris remove the dog legs from the Hirohata Merc doors? Because it wouldn't flow otherwise.
Why did Doane Spencer modify the cowl & doors to look like a '36? He had already installed the Duvall screen. Why did Joe Nitti run two gauge panels? Hell, why did Bob McGee need to shorten & box the front frame horns, then French the vee'd spreader bar, peak the rad shell, run a 3 piece hood, hidden hinges, extended trunk lid? Z the frame. Everyone must of thought McGee was nuts but obviously the stock proportions weren't what he wanted. If you use period parts in the mods it will be a Trad Hot Rod.

Kilroy,
Doane Spencer roadster as a lakes/street roadster

and its Road Race version.

You gotta ask yourself, do I want a lakes roadster or a road racer? Do you want the end result or the evolution?

For my project I wasn't going to run the exhaust through the firewall but than thought Fuck it! It means I have to convert it to LHD but you get that. You know what? I am stoked because when I finish it I know I didn't compromise what I really wanted.

 

I agree. Most projects are still in the garage or under a cover abandoned.
Dreams are never built when to much is put on "the right look" Or what Bubba thinks.
Give the said project personality...if it needs it. Most of the time the project speaks and gives the design to the builder.

 

Ok, this has been going on for two days and counting. Obviously the question strikes a nerve. I can't help myself I have to jump in again.
I ask...perfection compared to what? Don't answer.
If perfection were ever to be achieved...in anything. Life as we know it most likely would grind to a halt. Think about it.
Do it with passion. The rest takes care of its self.

 

My grandpa always said if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. So what is right? Right is different for everybody. Right can depend on a persons "eye" for detail, or their skill on a welder, or maybe the fact that their best friend is a very talented artist and is willing to help out on a project. When confronted with a car, usually the whole package is what gets your attention. The look, the rake , the wheel and tire combo ect. Once your attention has been captured you look to the details. Some cars are great in thier raw state, however with some cars the details enhance your overall feel about the car. I experince both just out in my garage. My coupe is all hot rod but is finely detailed, while the roadster is raw, no paint, very little chrome. I love them both, and enjoy every minute I get to spend driving them.

So what is right?
No two people will answer the same.

chuck

 

This thread really made me think about how and why I build my cars.
I don't "build" everything on my cars--let me say that right up front. But--I do fab about 50-60% of the stuff on them--with lots of help from my friends like KiwiKev-RatBone-Bill Hart-etc. I don't build "lots" of cars--only done 4 or 5 of my own,and worked on lots of others for others.
I try to build a "50 footer"---I like to get back 25-50 feet and just look at what I've done--if it's a little off by a tape measure,but it "looks" right--It's done! My old 37 coupe is a 100,000 mile car--almost 30 years on the thing, and most lines don't line up good--never did really well. But it's a car lots of people have commented on over the years--and am damn proud of the car as a whole. I did a model A roadster a few years back--had built the car in my mind for at least 20 years--then played with it for maybe 5 years. I wasn't trying to make it "period perfect", just close enuff to make me happy. My friends helped,and the car got built---ended up I had decided to sell it the help buy my next house--it sold in less that a week.And the best thing about the car ,was lots of people told me they loved the car,because it wasn't perfect--but because it had "the look"--what ever your think that should be. I'll never build a "perfect car"--don't want to--but wehatever I build next,I've already built in my head--problem is ,I've built about 50 --which one next??

 

Here's the definition of Perfection from everyone's favorite group of judges at GNRS.

 

I am with killroy on this one perfection like everything else is in the eye of the beholder. A Foose car especially any of his riddler cars are just amazing almost and in some cases cease to even be rods or customs but one off coach built concept level vehicles. I to am obsessed with details but i try and keep them simple on my car I am not chopping or sectioning because aesthetically on my car I ( me my self) think it wouldn't look right. Shave here smooth there just enough to make it mine.

I think Foose said it best " you know you have done it right when people arent quite sure you have done anything at all." but Thats my take. That being said sometimes cartoon proportions and crazy mods are just whats called for gassers, Roth cars, streamliners are a great examples chopped and whacked so wrong their just right. Take it as far as you are happy and willing to take it do your best or worst. Just know the only critic harsher on your ride than you are will be some guy without any car at all is gonna tell you how much better his car is or would be and how he would have done your car better.

 

I've been thinking on it since you posted, Kevin. It dawned on me while I was watching the video Ryan posted yesterday. In the real "back in the day", tires were mismathed front to rear, body lines at the hinges didn't line up, they put boxy air catchers on cars with no flat surfaces at all. It was an imperfect world.
Then those works of stylistic perfection like the Doane Spencer coupe come along and wow us all. They become the memorable standard, but they don't accurately represent the vast majority of cars from the time. They are the epitome.
I think I like the more realistic take, the slightly off perfect.

Ka ching $.02

 

There are cars that look "right" and those that look "wrong." Perfection in build quality is just a variation that can be witnessed in both.

I like "right" cars approaching perfect or not.

 

I didn't read every post. Read several but not all, so I'll avoid the gratuitous "...build it your way..." comments.

K'Lee I think I get it. Where you're going. I base the thoughts you provoke on the same mindset that I hear so often in restoration. That one of how "they never looked that good when new" discussion. Well, some of em did. Not just the show cars, but the high-dollar stuff that was available was pretty spot on. I may be of a mind filled with Packards, Duesenbergs, Isottas, etc., when in all reality there were exceptional builders and finishers in what I call "our world". The late great Ed Roth had a different eye and very diverse background. The things he built were at the highest level of presense and engineering, but I'm let down just a bit when I look at the paint finish. It was just done. End of story. I didn't see where anyone "made love" to the surface quality. But it didn't matter. And it certainly didn't distract one from looking at the whole picture. Far away in Lincoln Park MI there was a guy named Don Hughes. His finishes were perfect. That was in the 50s. I didn't know or see (too young) but the reverence to his work from Dad and others, as well as pics verify that. I'd have to say some stuff was truely spectacular, almost as stunning what we can do today. There was mention of the Spencer Roadster, Chrisman coupe, maybe others. Top of their class. Today we indeed have Troy and Chip, their master craftsmen employees, and as many independent home builders per capita with different talents and ability. Perfect gaps are easy if you start there. The straightest metal is usually the newest panels you can find. But now we have to build some of them from raw materials. New again. If you were building your hearts content, your personal vision, you're going to lay things out to the most pleasing form seen. A hydraulic technician (then or now) may have better plumbing on his car. Same with electrical, fabricators, painters, engine builders, or hard core racers. Certain things are better than others as a whole. I think the well off rodder/builder back in the day got the best of everything and best available talent just like today. Yet today we all have it easier to build more stunning examples of the same themes. Mig and Tig machines are like running water. HVLP spray guns, air tools, even some advanced metal shaping tools and machinery can be found in home garages. Have we raised the bar regarding straight, true, perfectly finished? Yes. It has to happen. With all the cliche's already said a higher percentage of perfect cars are sure to exist today. There's more of us. Some styles never disappear from favor such as, chopped Mercs, Duece coupes, gassers. The build continues today and evolves in each. We have this tradition thing happening and it's hard to blend it all in sometimes.

For me, I'll do the cleanest run and dirt free finish on a frame but I'm not going to cut and buff it. It just feels wrong. Why can't the finish under the chrome be ultra slick? Stainless brake lines have a great look when they're satin finished and add a nice contrast to a slick frame. I doubt there were many cars with high polished lines and hardware back in the day but it was brand new at some point. Interiors can have straight seams and good clean designs, but using old style materials is a good choice for the "look" of the day. They're availble still so why not. Paint...too complicated to bring it up. I like flawless. If those things constitute "better than", yes they are. I think that there were still exceptions from coast to coast as said above, but even "exceptional" is getting easier to achieve for many. If we're better in our traditional approach today then so be it. Whether admitted or not, most everyone likes perfect.

 

I understand were you are comming from because I lived in long Beach cal and belong to the O.C.C in orange county ca 20 years ago. We had some guys in the club that would do nothing but buy a new hot rode about every 2 or 3 months just to show it off at the car shows and try to tell you that they built it and after it would get old after a couple of months go buy another one, you just dont fine many guys that build a car that reflects who they really are if they did they would be driving around in a stack of
$100 Bills, or it may be they dont have a vison to build or the talent or tools to build there dream car in any case its a shame but on the positive side they are keeping the hot rod MFG pockets padded.