Argh! Help!

Guys -

the maiden run of the Track Roadster didn't go all that well...

1) Overheated in 5 miles of runnin'. with the cap on tight, it wants to run 225 - 230 deg F with the fan on. I'm gonna get a rad sizing program from my brother and sort it out - but the 14" tall fat rad doesn't look like it's gonna cut it.

2) Deceleration chatter - when in third and decelerating, the driveline chatters to beat the band. If I recall right - there's no bearing on the shortened torque tube...if it's shortened - do you still need one?

PM me with a phone # if you wanna talk this one thru - I'll check it later this evening.

Thanks,

Chuck.

 

Nahh...I've got vent holes in the T-stats to allow air bleed. 180 degree stats. this is a 14 X 18 4 core rad - and the proximity to the engine makes me think that the combo of high static pressure and closeness to engine components is what's causing the overheat. I'm gonna throw some water wetter in and take a run in the AM; if the result is the same, then the constraint is on the air side - not the water side.

 

that should be enough radiator to cool a 300 cubic inch engine....

 

Have not seen your car but-Sounds like your intake/water kneck is higher than the radiators top outlet-correct?

 

Surface area is right; I'm thinkin' the 4" thick core ain't allowin' enough air thru. If I run with the fan on all the time - it's still runs hot.

Pulled one of the 180 degree stats to see if it made a difference - nope. both sides run at about the same temp. If I'm on the level doin' 40+...it seems to level out at about 230-235 degrees. There's a hill by the house I can coast down - I can pull about 5-10 degrees off the motor down the hill; but I more than make it up goin' back up. Eight miles of runnin' netted a temp rise from 185 degrees to 240 degrees - and that's as hot as I want it to get.

Water wetter was added - no real change in performace. This leads me to believe its an air flow issue. I think I've figured out a work-around...so the real prob is the TQ tube and bearing. damn thing sounds like there's no bearing on the output shaft at 30-35 MPH when I back outta the throttle.

 

rad cap is about 1" higher than the inlets to the upper tank. After it boiled over (5 miles of runnin) I I pulled the upper pipes; the water level at that time was level with the top outlet of the heads.

Motor never ran outta water; the water level was *about* level with the top fins of the rad.

 

I'm ***uming your motor is a Flathead? What is the timing at, my car ran hot when I first started driving it, ends up I had the timing a little advanced. Should be about 3 degrees negative on a Flathead, once I did that it hasn't been above 185-195 at 65 mph with 3:54 gear ratio and I can cruise all day in hot weather with no worries. I went through everything else just like you are now.

 

I have a 5 core radiator about the size of yours. With a good fan, properly placed and a shroud it cools a 327 sbc just fine. Haven't seen pics of your set up, but you might want to look at the fan and shroud arrangement.

 

Driveline chatter. You mean "bearing on the shortened" DRIVESHAFT don't you? That shouldn't be a problem. You know all the pre-49 flatties had anti-chatter rods from the factory don't you? See if you can work something out like that, it may help. Perhaps a loose transmission mount or mounts?

 

Is the car a nose car with a full hood, or a hood top only, what size opening is there in the nose and does it have a grille, made of what?
Many of the repop nose grilles are extremely restrictive to air flow, some even reduce it by 40-50% just 'cause the castings are so thick and bulky.
It is also important that your fan if electric is a puller mounted on the engine side of the radiator and that air flow through the nose hole (a nostril I guess!?) is ALL directed to the radiator core. This requires a good bit of baffling from the nostril to the core. A good test is to make something up with simple cardboard and duct tape(300MPH racer tape, ya know). If the problem eases you know to make up a more pe manent and nicer looking p***ageway for the air intake. It wouldn't hurt to have a "scoop" along the bottom of the nose shoving air in that way too. Also a deflector along the bottom of the radiator or crossmember ala modern cars to create that low pressure area and evacuate hot air wouldn't hurt if you could do it nicely.

 

Haven't messed around with a flathead since I was about 20 but the biggest problems we used to have in the stock cars was keeping the water in the radiator long enough to cool it. Running in second gear on a 1/4 mile oval really heated things up in a hurry.

Our solutions were:knock off every other blade on the water pump impellers;drill a hole in the remaining ones;use a smaller diameter crank pulley(to slow the water pumps down);use pennies to block off the heat riser p***ages in the block.

Don't know if that is any help in your situation.

 

Guys -

1) rad is a very fat 4 (maybe 5?) core unit.
2) Pusher fan.
3) hand fabbed track nose - very open.
4) One side has a 180 degree stat, the other no stat. Doesn't seem to make a difference in cooling - I've run it with and without stats.
5) Speedway 'improved' water pumps.
6) have run sans hood - no change.
7) have tried a bunch of different timing settings; no real change in rate of overheat.
8) motor is STILL running fat; loaded up a second set of plugs in 20 miles (more or less) of runnin'

Here's where it gets bizarre...

I've noticed it starts poorly hot - figured there was leakage on the outboard carb PV's, so I yanked the fuel lines from each. Engine won't idle worth a **** now - but when I ease on down the road, I can watch the engine temp drop - a couple miles of runnin' and she's at 210 degrees. As soon as I hit a lite - 230.

Decided to 'back check' the airflow with a quickie test - a leaf blower! Set it close to the pusher, and the airflow went WAAY up....temps, however, did not change.

Soo...If I'm dumping a lot of fuel into the engine and it's burning slow...will a slow burn put more heat into a flathead? I'm thinkin' it does.

Still need to know if a center bearing is needed on a short TQ tube. it's noisy as all get out. Trans was supposedly rebuilt and seems to work fine. Oddly - I don't get the chatter in 2nd.

 

Boy,
I sure hope you dont have a cracked block issue.
Give us specifics on the engine...
Rebuilt? boiled? mag'd checked?
try running a single intake with a known good carb.
You have alot of stuff going on... Try to get to the basics and get it running smoothly first.
I would think the front bearing is needed.
Can you remove the floor to locate the noise and see if its the clutch making this chatter?

 

Not to be a downer on cool parts, but check your t-stats. Do you have a temp gun? If not, I got a loner, we can check and make sure your fancy gauges work Is there a shround with out the nose on? I can't remember, if not, maybe slap one on, I remember Roadstar telling me even a little one makes a difference.

 

Damn I wish I had time to come take a look see.

 

It's a pristine rebuilt block; no cracks - no leaks. coolant does not bubble when cap is off.

to the single carb point...

fabbed up a pair of block-off plates outta s**** alloy; slapped 'em on and took the car for a spin. Still running one stat in - one out as a 'check'....

Engine's *finally* stabilized it's temp climb. running on the level at 40-45 MPH, I can get the temps to drop to about 220. Running like that - the T-stat side runs hotter (230)...when runnin' at 25 MPH, the T-stat side runs cooler than the non-stat side. Temps climb fast when at the lite, tho.

While not happy with 220-230, at least it's stabilized. went about ten miles that time.

Guys - temp gauges are showing the correct temps - that's been checked. There's no need for a shroud on a pusher fan app hard mounted to the radiator - the flow is the flow.

As for the driveshaft and TQ tube...Zach sez there's a bearing in there. The noise is not there at all in 2nd and noisy as hell in 3rd - especially at about 35 MPH decelerating. the 2-3 gear cluster is constant mesh, right? If so, then the countershaft and/or #2 gear could be bad. It's most pronounced up thru the shifter, actually.

Finally...

TO do the math on the cooling system, I REALLY need rated flow rates for flattie water pumps. Eyeballing the impellers and pulley ratios - it looks to be 20-25 GPM each; but I need to know for sure.

Will take tank temps, factor water flow rates, and take airflow readings to arrive at actual info to get there from here. After that's done - I may even do a bench test of the flathead cooling system to arrive at empirical data using a known heat transfer device. My garage may look kinda kooky in a week or two...

 

I just learned a Lesson the Hard way. If you started with an Old Flathead rad and had it re-cored then put a latter Pressuer cap on it you may have a Cap Problem. The 49 up Ford rad cap neck was same Dia as latter common caps. The stock 4-7 lb caps used a 1" deep neck. The latter necks from about 55 up used the same style cap but th eneck was only 3/4" deep. A late cap on an early neck won't seat in the neck and will let water free flow out the over flow tube since there is a 1/4" space and is the same size as the overflow tube. I just weht through Hell to learn this lesson.
The Wizzard

 

I am running two pushers on my 8BA. From the outside you see no fins.. all fan. The engine stays cool in any weather. I run the speedway pumps.
You should be able to achieve cooling with that setup providing the radiator size is sufficient.
What size is the radiator (WxH)?
I would suspect your timing.
Check your timing.
Lack of enough advance will definitely cause this at high rpm.
Flow rates....
Skip Haney may have flow rate information. Give him a call.
Only thing.... he builds his own pumps. But he has studied all of this.
He may not have info on the speedway pumps though.
Skips
Tel day: 941-637-6698
night: 941-505-9085

This info was found by me on Fordbarn written by GM.
He has studied these flow rates and designed the impellers that Skip installs.
per GM...
The impellers on the 32-36 that I designed for Skip pump 92 gallons in 5 minutes compared to the stock impellers at 55 gallons. The 37-53 stock pumps 65-70 where the new turbine impeller is at 110.

Gm has his own website but I cant find it.
I really dont think you have a pump flow problem...
I would suspect that if a flow issue is present its not realated to the pumps but some other blockage issue. Having both side running high tells me you have a timing issue if your radiator size is sufficient.
Just my opinion. Man this problem really ****s.

 

Just some "lateral thinking" here but, could the driveline chatter also be the cause of the overheating somehow? -as in putting undue stresses on the motor or something to that effect?

 

Quick dumb question... Are you sure your fan is running the correct direction? Some of the fans have blades that are reversible to make them pusher vs pullers and yours may be flipped wrong. I had it happen on a SBC and took days of hand wringing to notice and minutes to fix.

 

14" X 18" is not a big radiator. If you have nose with an opening that is any smaller than the radiator frontal area and you've got a pusher bolted on the front you could be significantly obstucting the effective cooling area. Typically pushers are not as efficient as pullers, either. What size is the pusher? What is its "stated" CFM? Have you tried it without the nose? Do you have room to reverse the fan and try it as a puller? Just trying to think of anything that might contribute to the problem if it is, as you believe, an airflow issue.

Good luck!

 

if a 14 x 19 4 core will cool off a 389 inch Pontiac motor, it should work on a flattie.

I agree completely with the timing. and not just the distributor timing- are you 100 percent positive the CAM timing is correct? could cause heat issues, and chatter issues as well....

but omitting the worst case scenario, consider this- a motor that is running off time is allowing the exhaust g***es to exit the cylinder while they're STILL BURNING- meaning that you have now introduce FIRE into the block. it will make an overhead valve motor turn the headers red hot...considering where the exhaust p***es in a flattie, I can imagine it could cause some significant cooling issues.

 

That's where I'm at right now...I've had the timing advanced and liked the way it ran, but it pinged. Will try advancing it again today.

FWIW, engine max temps tracked outside air temps - when the OAT rose 20 degrees, the engine temp followed. My total distance B4 it's hot (as in above 200 degrees) is about five miles.

Laid in bed and went thru the probs - stuff always seems clearer the following day. I'm pretty sure there's a gear cluster issue, specifically chatter of the 2nd gear countershaft gear. I may try a 'cheat' for the time being - machinists cling oil...overfilled - to see if it doesn't reduce the noise.

Additional prob - ignition is breaking up at about 3000 RPM (prox.) when going thru the timing curve in my mind, the engine would be advanced too far, allowing an ignited mix to 'pop' into a partially open exh port. Either that - or spark blowout.

 

Couple other thoughts:

1) cam is spot on...I checked it many times B4 bolting it all back together It's bout as wild a cam as you can run on the street inna flattie - if it were off a tooth (gear drive) engine would not run, as there's too much overlap to allow it to go.

2) the chatter is limited to when the trans is in 3rd, and doesn't go away when in third and the clutch is depressed. Oddly, when in 2nd, the trans is quiet - even when clutch is depressed. It's a NASTY sound.

thanks, guys, for trying to help me thru this. It really does help to talk it thru - wish some of ya could be in the driveway with a beer while we do this. I've gone out and special ordered some Abita Amber from New Orleans; it's some of the smoothest drinkin' beer I've ever run into. If you have the time and wanna kick tires this Saturday...I'll most likely be spinnin' wrenches all day.

 

Overheating

Timing is a major issue for flattys overheating. It's been beat to death here, but I don't know what distributor you're using, what advance curve, or what your total timing is. Can you answer these questions & we can go from there. You want about 22-24* total timing (at sea level) all in by 2000-2500 rpm. Most stock flatty start around 4* static - if you can get away with it, start at 6* (keeping total timing in mind)

Ignition breakup - could be coil or condensor (***uming points-type ignition) when hot. 220-240 is hot & at 240, I'd be changing oil as it begins to break down around these temps & loses it's lubricity (not sure that's a word, but you get the idea) & then it can add to your thermal issues.

Radiator - yours is on the smallish side, but with a packed 4-5 row core, you need airflow. Your pusher fan could be part of the problem. Two things - as mentioned, check to make sure it's actually pushing air (polarity of motor & shape of blades can both cause this, of course). The other is that the pancake motors on these things are rather large & obstruct airflow not insignificantly - if you have room, I'd definitely put it on the engine side & wire as a puller fan to see if it helps.

Airflow - I see mention of a track-style nose in some responses - do you have the airflow available or do you need a larger opening? Hard to say, but one more potential puzzle.

Headgaskets - Even fresh builds can have gasket issues. Anything odd here? 59A heads on 8BA block? Pop your hoses off, get rid of the belt, run the engine & look for bubbles in the water neck when revved.

Chatter

As you know, 3rd is straight through, this means your countershaft is idling along with no load on it. Could be your countershaft bearings. I had a similar noise in my '34 - drove me nuts. In the end, I believe it was a part of the u-joint hitting the ball/socket. When in 1st & 2nd, the side load on the mainshaft causes the u-joint to be forced down ever so slightly, but in 3rd, it runs straight because of the lack of sideloads. If I pushed down hard on the floorboard over the ball/socket, I could get it to go away slightly. When I pulled the ball/socket, there was considerable upward pressure of the torque tube.

When you ***embled your torque tube & U-joint, did you have to put a lot of downward pressure on it to get it to line up with the trans? If so, this may be an area to look at.

The anti-chatter rods mentioned earlier won't have much to do with this - they're primarily for initial starting in 1st or reverse - they simply keep the engine from moving fore/aft - not a problem in cruise.

 

Flat -

Thanks for the comprehensive post!

After putting a fresh set of plugs in - it's running pretty lean on the single carb. I'm gonna leave that alone for the time being, as this is the first time the plugs did not come out loaded up.

I'll be taking a bunch of readings Monday evening after I get my instruments from work - airflow, head tank temp, bottom tank temp, etc...I've got it 80% licked and should be able to move onto the chatter issue here shortly.

I'll keep this thread updated with the results.

 

OK - that's something to look at that I didn't address - if it's lean, it could be your problem. As for previous plugs loading up, if you're having ignition problems, they can "look" like fuel problems & you descend into circular troubleshooting!

One potential scenario - it's lean, runs hot, ignition breaks down, plugs foul. When you pull the plugs, they look sooty, but that's because they're not firing well, not because the carb is rich.

I'd jet up a couple sizes & see what that gets you.

 

Bada - BING!

Advanced it a couple of degrees more; took it out on Woodward and got stuck for the better part of an hour in construction traffic...

hottest it got idling was 215 degrees; after I took off - 225.

futzed a bit with the carb after getting home - let it cool down to 150 and went back out for a ten mile drive...

Hottest? 210.

While I've a bit of a way to go yet - anytime I can see sub boiling temps is good!

As for the fouling/lean issue...It appears the outboard carbs were not up to sealing snuff - both on the throttle plates and on the PV's. I'll hafta go thru them and figure that out.

Did an old trick to overfill the trans with machinists cling oil - ran the car up on ramps on the fill side, and that allowed about a pint of additional oil. Made no diff in the chatter - which does indeed occur only in third gear. Gonna pull the rear end tomorrow to see what's what.

Still need to sort out the misfire above midrange; I am thinkin' it's a jetting issue. One prob at a time, tho...

 

When you disconnect the TT from the back of the trans - take note if there is any pressure up or down here. Clean out the inside of the bell & see if your U-joint has been touching anywhere.

Is this a fresh engine? It will run 5-10 deg warmer until fully broken in, but still seems a bit on the high side.

Mine never gets past 195 in 95 degree heat, going 1000' up the mountain I live...