History As it was VS over restored?

I guess to answer the original question; there were many very well done rides, I saw, in the early '60s. Not everything was quick and dirty, including race cars. No doubt the circle track guys dinged them up. Pictures of old Indy cars look like well finished machines. Look at any of the Miller cars

If it is "restored", it should be to the quality of the original form. No doubt there are perfect, high dollar, examples of everything. But as was said, "Chevy pays for dies and Cadillac pays for hand work".

 

Fords, of course, were not built to the same standard as Packards or Deusenbergs. But folks still want to make them better than they ever were. The late Bruce McCalley, when asked about the topic of this discussion (over-restoration) answered that, "The MTFCI Judging Guidelines state that the objective is to make the car the closest it can be to the way it was when it left the assembly plant. But the shiniest paint job always wins."

 

I feel the Pebble Beach cars are expected to be perfect because when they were first built, that's what they were. A little research into the craft of the period coach builders would leave you in awe. Only the finest woods. Carved ivory knobs. Crystal, fine leathers and other materials. All of these were finished and fit by highly skilled craftsmen of the time. So, when I see one, that's what I'm expecting. Not "patina" and scratches in the finish. Perfection.

With Hot Rods and Customs, it's a little different. If the car was "home built" and I see a flaw, it's part of the cars story. It's driven and used as it should be. However, a high end, gold chainer Hot Rod or Custom better be perfect. I've seen quite a few where I wondered if the owner liked being ripped off. Show cars fit into that category as well. Rare is the show car that gets driven. Off and onto the trailer, doesn't count as being "driven". So I expect perfection. I'm waiting for the "patina" phase to end. Leaving an older car in "as found" condition is, in my opinion, the trademark of lazy, broke or both. There's no prize for, "ran when parked" and there never should be. If a person can't bring a survivor back to it's glory days, they should leave it for someone who can.

When I went to car shows, I tended to admire the "driven" cars. They'll always get my attention and if the owner/builder was able to keep it in great shape, even better. The gap between"as it was" and "over restored" is too wide for a sensible discussion.

 

I just read a little blurb by Roth, about how he built his cars...yeah, I expect you did a better job than he did!

but today, that's what folks expect. I made my Chevy II way too nice to be the 1966 era match racer it's supposed to look like. Of course it's nowhere near PB standards...which is great, because I don't have much money in it, and I can beat on it and have fun with it.

 

I'm using that!

 

were you there in 09 with Ed Newton?

 

I guess I'll be a living oxymoron. My 39 is staying in it's original Henry black paint even though I spend the majority of my life building some fairly ultimate stuff. My reason? I'm "off the hook" with this one. It's almost too nice to strip and refinish but original enough to really enjoy that. In my game, unless it's a stone cold original I'd best not present something that's hasn't gone all the way. I'll fix it, blend a few things, weld up and spot a crack in the fender, and I'll fix the trunk tool box rust (where they all go). I luck out and don't have to strip and prime and block and fit and, well, I get a pass. Inside? Under the hood? Yeah, I'll do a measure of "my thing" there including having a car that will finally have my woodgrain in it. Talking to Ford club judge once his frame was really nice, too nice really, to be a representative of the time it was built. He quickly pointed out a couple runs in the paint on the inside of the rails where it wouldn't be noticed by anyone but the picky-ass judges. It was like he surely ate his cake. I took these chassis pics back in Nov. It's a car that's all original except for a refinish of the front fenders. I wanted to take note of what the "chassis in color" option entailed. Since it was simple enamel of the 30s the oxidation was expected but I didn't expect how far they'd gone with the color. The engine pans were painted on this one but I've never seen anything but black. The running boards and brake booster weren't done and a few other minor items. Yes, this is the real deal from 1934. Sometimes we get to see how much "give a shit" the workers took to the job


A quick edit, and a couple pics of how I took my research and it's final effect on the product. This was well before seeing the real thing and using photos. Easy to talk the talk, but the walk...? Too much or just right?

 

As I've said before, there was a time when "patina" meant the result of half a century's painstaking care and maintenance, rather than of half a century's neglect, abuse, and exposure to harsh marine industrial environments. Back in my adolescence when I went in for building military models in a big way the latter was called "weathering"; it's something quite different. I'd say that patina in the above sense is still something to be desired in an antique piece of whatever kind. I'd also say that an extremely high-quality restoration can be a good base on which to grow proper patina, if the object as found is more weathered than patinated.

There are lots of issues around restoration. It's a centuries-old debate in architecture, for instance. If you want to see just how much you can dig out of the subject, try the late Umberto Eco's essay on American museology, Travels in Hyperreality. He relates the approach to museums in the USA to the approach to advertising, especially Coca-Cola's slogan, The Real Thing, and asks why American museums focus on originality while European museums focus of explanation. Americans, Eco concluded, had a hunger for the sort of historical genuineness of which Europeans have a surplus in their environment, and would therefore rather see Julius Caesar's actual sandal than an informative interactive display explaining Roman shoemaking.

When it comes to cars, all kinds of questions arise from this. Why is originality held to be important? Why is the Ship-of-Theseus thing even a thing? What is "type"? What is "pattern", and why does it mean such different - in some senses opposite - things in the languages of art history and anthropology on one hand, and industrial engineering on the other? And what has all this got to do with mass production? and legislation? and political economy?

Point is, there is like an ocean of questions in there.

(Man, I'm missing 3W Larry now!)

 

Agree with statement, I like all of them, appreciate car Jewelery, my term for the over restored racer and yes most new racers from any time frame were nice, But few that were raced were maintained to new condition with some exceptions. I have seen some Midget restorations that are so perfect, beautiful that they should be on a turntable in my man cave. Survivor cars are Kool as they are original only once and restored to original also floats my boat. Hot Rods and Kustoms that are drivers are where it's at for me, as driving my cars is my enjoyment of having them. So... To repeat myself, like them all, the variety in our car hobby is "Outstanding" the people involved are as unique as the cars IMO.

 

reason I was wondering, I was there in 09. I was hanging out downstairs with guys from the Detroit Road Devils. One of them asked if I wanted to talk to the guy with the Roth cars and talk to Ed. He apparently knew both, Ed came down and signed his flat black 34 coupe. Ed and the guy with the Roth cars hooked me up with a cool signed T-shirt. If that was you, thanks for the cool shirt.

 

we went upstairs for the shirt, then Ed cam down to check out the cars

 

I know... they probably pee indoors and wear underwear... the humanity...

 

My stuff is never smooth enough to be considered anything but a beater. But I am with you, even at a regular concourse not Pebble Beach you see stock original cars that are way over the top. I have visited my share of showrooms over the years and cars are just not that smooth from the factory.

Although there used to be a guy right here in KC that specialized in painting Corvettes for resto purposes and his whole deal was getting the proper orange peel on in the proper places to look original. LOL

Getting back to it, my cars are always a little rough around the edges. This is not to say that I cannot build a smooth one but I have never went to that trouble for myself. The cars I remember from when I was a little guy, the ones that I liked always looked well used.

 

Interesting question. Goes to the heart of hot rod building. Ya' hear a lot of "shite talk" at every show, spectators nit-picking every conceivable aspect of the cars on display, but "too nice" is a new one on me. With very few exceptions, real-world hot rods are a case of "champagne taste on a beer budget". In my opinion, over-restoration is just the fulfillment of the original builder's dream, the way he saw the car in his mind but without the real-world limitations he faced during the actual construction. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

Maybe that's what bugs me about over restored old race cars? I know that they guys racing were putting everything they had into getting the latest go-fast goodness into the car, so looks were usually rather low on the priority list. Seeing one of these cars after a years long no holds barred show quality restoration, just looks wrong for what the car is all about.

 

Yep. ^^^^^

I remember when I was little going to the Hallf Moon Bay drag strip with the old man and some of those cars that would be considered iconic drag cars today looked like they had been painted with a broom. They had paint on them but it was certainly not a priority.

Now by the late '60s and '70s the teams with mega bucks had those damned circus paint jobs on their glass strippers. But that is a little outside our scope.

 

No way, next you'll be telling me they bathe during the week too?
Fool me once....

 

I had to go to a wedding once and took a bath on a Wednesday. It threw off the time space continuum and things have never been the same since.

 

"None were an investment."

You may have answered your own question. Everything is an investment these days, especially a race car with a history. We went to the B&J auction in Connecticut again this year and got a real education in over restoration.

I figure that it takes an automobile educated person to recognize and appreciate the originality of a vintage racer and a dedicated owner to want to retain that race car as it is/was during its war years.

 

I tend to have my own version of restored that some people find confusing. When I shot the firewall of the '31, I left the spot welds for the radiator support brackets visible even though it was painted black metallic. Is it more visible in black than it normally would be? Yes, but even though some thought I should have smoothed the spot welds, or paint it straight black, it's what my brain says Henry would have done. It's all about the contradiction and contrast......

 

I think there is a bunch of leeway given to cars that actually did race. Best effort at body work and paint and call it good to show. I recall going to see the GN cars at Islip as a kid in the pits, most of those were patched up while out on the road, nothing like the perfect cars that show up to race on Sunday. Probably some of the lesser funded teams touch up the cars and fix the graphics race to race.

 

LOL I was at big NASCAR race back in the '70s and some of the teams were banging fenders and painting them with a brush in the pits before the race. Granted a salt car or a dragster shouldn't get that banged up but they were still all about going fast as a rule.

 

I tend to under restore my heaps.

Mart.

 

I agree with you on the factory weld dimples, that is how the looked when they left the factory. Same deal on the Lyndwood rail I restored, stick welded in 1959 and the spatter marks were left on it. Car held a National NHRA Record at one time, spatter marks and all, it would have been wrong to remove them during the restoration. Fun when a HAMB thread starts to go sideways. Bob

 

Whoa guys I am talking about the hot rods and customs not Packard and crap.

 

May be crap to you, but some people would step up and pay dearly for this one, might even get an invite to Pebble Beach after the restoration. Bob

 

Sorry if custom or "job shop" cars don't fit. It's all I have to offer in the way of live examples. Just like the "...nobody cares and prices are dropping..." topics this one's been around for decades. Of course it begins in the restoration venues, old rods, racers or just consumer cars from the past. I entered my bracket racer in the Detroit Autorama before it went to the track. Big class, about 11 cars and I came in 4th. The top 3 deserved it with their attention to detail and clean construction. Most cars worth the effort and expense of a restoration were likely built to that same level back then. Perhaps that dedication is one of the reasons it's worthy of the effort today? In a recent TRJ there's the story of Cragar wheels and one of the guy's racers was really pretty nice. Not some slag tossed together for beating up on a local track. Early INDY cars were just short of mechanical art back then. Drag racing has always been the place to see really nice cars in competition. Sometimes we tend to wonder how nice things were when we see new chrome, fresh paint, detailed wiring and plumbing and more. When I built my car it was fairly clean in regard to such things, and the reason for me was ease of service or speedy detection of a problem. I could pull my engine with hand tools in about 30-40min. If you know what to look for try cruising through the little books and "green pages" of featured cars from the day. Im' guessing we won't see the rat shit welding and bailing wire construction in any of them. Again, hacks aren't a new development, artisans have always been among us. In closing, the heavy customs and their styles were inspired by the likes of "Dutch" Darrin, Ray Dietrich and T. "Bob" Gregory. Maybe search those names and see what I mean. Some already know, to others it may inspire again.

 

I like all cars but have a problem with people who present a car as something it's not.
If you say you're going for over restored perfection, it better be perfect.
If you tell me it's original it better be and original!

Most car shows I go to are full of cars with $500 kicknfill paint jobs 1/2 of which are said to be original and the other half advertised as perfect big money restored cars!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk