asphalt modified chassis

All you guys that are interested in using Oval track stuff on a hot rod MUST READ the following TECH link from Woodward Rack and pinnion steering co.

It covers A LOT OF TECH STUFF FOR STEERING AND SUPENSIONS

PRINT MANY COPIES AND GIVE THEM TO your hot rod buddies

http://www.woodwardsteering.com/images/cat05 pdf 64-79.pdf

http://www.woodwardsteering.com/images/cat05 pdf 100-105.pdf

http://www.woodwardsteering.com/images/cat05 pdf 80-99.pdf

http://www.woodwardsteering.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=659&Itemid=566

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/57-C...s_Not_Street_Legal_?hash=item335a268c12#v4-29

 

I race both a Perimiter and an Offset Oval track stock car on the weekends at FLat Rock speedway south of detroit,,,

go measure a 1930's/40/s body width and I wll post my chassis widths for you for an offset cage and a perimiter cage.

Most perimiter Oval track chassis will be too wide in the cage area for a 1930'/40's body.

An Offset/straight rail ( rt side straight rail) cage will fit a 1930's/40's car much better.

also to get that traditional old style mod look you will need a longer wheel base than a LM chassis has,,most LM's have a 102 inch wb, some are 105, and nascar cars are 110.

So here is what you MAY have to do AFTEr YOU USE A TAPE MEASURE.

get an offset chassis.

cut the front clip off where it connects to the main frame rails.

Move the clip Forward about 10 inches and to the left about 5 inches.

add about 10 inches of 2X3 tubbing between the front clip and the main frame to get over 110 inch wheelbase.

move the engine mounts back about 10 inches to get that set back engine look.

cut the rear clip off and move over to the left also.

buy a used axle tube and axle to get the center section of your quick change where you want it ( its a bolt in deal with axle tubes)...

 

what did you guys think of the tech link?

 

Most LM's use a Winters Quick change,,,

here is the tech info

http://www.wintersperformance.com/catalogs.htm

some newer cars use a Tiger QC

http://www.tigerrearend.com/

others use a Frankland

http://www.franklandracing.com/

 

HERE is a link for drawings of typical oval track chassis, ,,stock frame, Modified, perimiter, and offset,,,

print out the drawings and use sissors to cut the front clip off of an offset chassis print and move it where you want,,,

http://www.cscracing.com/chassisboth.html

 

this typical of what is avialable in used oval track cars,,,for sale for very cheap complete roller with quickchange,,asking about $2000

 

this is a 1928 dodge i think,,,is this what your Dodge coupe looks like?

 

MORE INFO

http://www.vroamodifieds.com/

http://www.vintagemods.com/

 

I'm not saying im against your idea but i think there is more involved than your planning. Like NHBandit mentioned the cars are usually offset and designed to turn left. The rear axle tubes are prob going to be different length and the front control arms will be offset. I have a buddy that built rod out of racing components and it handles like a race car on warm up laps, it tends to "dart" back and forth. His is all wide 5 with a strait axle out of a big block supermodified. He took the caster split out of the axle to help the handling but its still a handful to drive. He has also gone through 3 drive plates on the rear axle because of the locker. He is a fabricator by trade and heas been racing since he could walk and has raced ISMA big block supermodifieds, small block supermodifieds, Pro stocks, Dwarf cars, TQ Midgets, and sprint cars so he knows his stuff. Im not saying dont do it, just be prepared to do alot of fabrication and dont expect it to handle like a cadillac.

 

yes there is a lot planning and research involved.

but all the info is easy to get. You can contact the chassis builder.

But if you add it all UP, you are saved a LOT of TIME and MONEY by buying a complete oval track roller, and either modifying the chassis or just using all the parts.

Yes many asphalt Late Models may have the QC center section offset to the left, but that is fixed with a used bolt in axle tube and axle shaft.

Yes Some Asphalt front clips have the lower pivot points offset to the left, but many do not, and most dirt front clips are symmetrical. so you need to use your tape measure.

So yes get your tape measure and use it before you buy a complete roller.

Contact the chassis maker, ask ???.

Now as to the guy with the car he built using oval track parts,,

I have built and driven/raced oval track cars for decades,and still do.,,NONE of my cars are "darty" EVER. If they are I fix them. all my cars handle BETTER than a caddy.

He is using a beam axle, and if you do not get the linkage from the steering box to the axle right it will be darty, this is true even if you are using Model A parts. also how is his toe out on turns? ,,did he get his ackerman right?
The Oval track cars we suggested using have Independent Front Suspensions, not beam axles.

Maybe he is breaking rear axle drive plates cause he is using a SPOOL (always locked rear end) not a locker, if he used a locker he would solve his problems. with a locker the rear axle is un locked most of the time the rear tires differentiate, IF he does have a locker rear end then the Spring in the locker is BAD and needs to be replaced.

Ask him if he has a spool or a locker,,,If he has a locker, ask him if he has replaced the Big spring inside the locker....I bet if he replaced the Big spring he would not have anymore problems.

 

"...Maybe he is breaking rear axle drive plates cause he is using a SPOOL (always locked rear end) not a locker, if he used a locker he would solve his problems. with a locker the rear axle is un locked most of the time the rear tires differentiate, IF he does have a locker rear end then the Spring in the locker is BAD and needs to be replaced..."

So, is there a more "street friendly" differential that fits a quickchange and wouldn't be as agressive as a locker??...I just read up on the "Gold Track" type and not only are the super expensive,they might be too much for the street...

 

do they have "road course" cars for sale too?
seems like that would be the chassis to get for a car that would see street duty.

 

Most modern Pickup trucks have locker rear ends as an option from the factory, they work great on the street. but they are a governed type locker,,,only lock after wheel spin happens.

the locker in a QC is a Like a Detroit locker in a Ford 9 inch, and they came stock from ford in many cars and trucks.

for the street a LOCKER differential in a QC would be fine. they also have many different springs that adjust when the locker comes in and locks the differential.

but I would not mind running a spool in Hot rod,,,that way i could get the car loose in the turns easier, and smoke both rear tires with the ass end hung out comming out of a turn,,even at low street speeds,,you know kinda like when you drive your pick up on a snowy road, and you power out of a corner with the rear end hung out.

See this link on Detroit Lockers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Locker


FAQ for Differentials
Detroit Locker

What kind of oil should I use? Can I use synthetic? Do I need friction additive/modifier?
A quality petroleum/mineral based oil works best in the Detroit Locker units. We do not recommend synthetic oil. Friction additive/modifier is not required.

Can I use the stock bearings?
In most cases the Detroit Lockers work with the factory (stock) bearings. The exceptions are: 10 bolt 8.5\8.6 GM axles, the “Performance” Dana 35 & 44 and GM12 bolt with 35 spline axles. No other “special” setup is required.

What kind of break-in is required?
The Detroit Lockers do not require any break in.

When does a Detroit Locker lock?
The Detroit Locker is locked up 100% in a straight line or if you are spinning. The unit unlocks in a turn for the wheel that is turning the fastest.

When I step on and off the gas pedal, I hear the unit make a “clunking” noise. Why?
Because Detroit Lockers have “backlash” or “slack” between the drive and driven teeth and you will hear this in everyday use going through corners and when going from drive mode to coast mode. Also with the vehicle on the ground and the transmission in neutral you will have 1\4 to 1\3rd of a turn of lash in the driveshaft, this is completely normal.

Can I run a Detroit Locker on the street?
Many people do use the Detroit Locker during everyday street use. The Detroit Locker is a very aggressive differential, so you will hear it and feel it everyday on the street. Eaton makes many applications for trucks that spend most of their lives on the road. (In the late 60’s, some Ford cars had the Detroit Locker as a factory option.)

How much horsepower and torque will the Detroit Locker take?
There are many factors to consider when determining if a specific differential will last in your vehicle. Horsepower and torque are important factors. However, the weight of the car, tire height/width, the terrain and suspension are all important things to take into consideration. For example, a setup that uses street tires will live longer because both tires will break loose and spin before any real strain is put on the unit. But as the tire gets wider, the stress on the unit increases because the traction is greater. When in doubt, the best bet is to call us with your specific application and driving conditions. But also keep in mind that the Detroit Locker is the strongest unit sold today and has been for many years.

Can the Detroit Locker be used in the front axles?
Yes they can, but you must have lock out hubs and they MUST be unlocked for on- road driving because of steering issues.

Can the Detroit Locker be repaired?
Yes they can. Should you need to repair a Detroit Locker parts can be purchased from any of our dealers. Call Eaton Customer Service so we can provide a blow up of the unit that shows all the part numbers and help you find out exactly what part numbers you need to purchase. At that time we can even recommend a company to buy the parts from

 

YES, and many Oval track cars have symetrical lower control arm pivot points, just the upper a-arms are different lengths.

 

Current mock-up. The body sill is pretty much intact from firewall to rear sear riser, so I'll splay framerails in the center bay to match, use straight rails, with kick-ups, in the in front and back sections. Need to design front suspension to set front kick-up, rear will be 12"

 

Tricknology


http://www.vroamodifieds.com/

http://www.vintagemods.com/

Both rule books refer to the VROA, or OARC, frame, but don't include a drawing. Do you have access to one?

Lenny

 

Just a question about Quickchanges ...Do they use a Ford 9" R&P ? If they do ,could you use a regular Ford limited-slip carrier instead of a spool?

 

In the Old days most quick change rear ends were based on the late 1930's FORD Truck rear axle, the 3/4 ton one I think,,,that why they have side bells like all early ford rear axles,,they have a ring geat that is about 10 inches in diameter....Ssoo,,Maybe a carrier from a late 1930's/40's ford truck would be able to work in a stock car quick change rear end.

I think Midget QC is based on the rear ends from 1930's/40's Ford passanger cars which used a ring gear of about 8 inches in diameter.

 

both clubs used to have the drawings on their web site,,,Just post a request on their forum and they will e-mail you a drawing.

 

Contrary to what Mr Spadaro posted, from a performance handling standpoint, a Mustang II front end has horrible geometry. The camber goes positive with VERY little body roll, and the after market versions with no strut tubes on the lower control arms are very prone to flex and cracking when subjected to high braking loads. The brakes twist the spindle, which twists the control arm mounts, and since most after market MII setups use a single cross member mount with long extension spacers, the cross member itself twists under this load and eventually fails.

If you want a car that looks like a race car but that will only ever be used for puttering around town or down the road at a safe and sane Honda Civic-like pace, the MII will be fine. Put a fourbanger in it and live a Ralph Nader approved life.

However, if you want a car that not only looks like a race car, but handles like one, you need to build it like you mean it. That means either having someone design you a front suspension, or use one from a reputable builder, and assemble it using the parts they tell you to. It will likely be cheaper than an after market MII setup anyway, and it will for damned sure corner better when you're done.

Look for a Howe, Port City, or Lefthander straight rail asphalt LMS car will a symetrical front suspension. The offset in the rear end is not a problem. You can either leave it or swap out tubes on the QC, it's not a big deal. The drive shaft doesn't really care if it's directly behind the transmission or not, just watch your angles to make sure you're not over working your u-joints.

Dirt chassis are going to be a lot of work to get into a street worthy configuration, especially when it comes to interior space. Most dirt cars have some sort of traction system above the driveshaft where the console would be, either a torque arm (fifth and sixth coil), or a spring loaded pull bar, or a Reese bar, or some combination thereof, which more or less take up all the space where a passenger seat and console would normally live. Making the suspension work without this stuff there would be more or less a non-starter. Dirt rear suspensions usually have a LOT of dynamic rear end steer built into the suspension, which will be goofy as hell to try and deal with on the street. Take a look at a dirt late model on a tacky track and you will see what I mean:



See how the left rears are crawling up under the cockpit in those pics?

It's not uncommon at all for the wheelbase of a dirt late model to change two or three inches under body roll.

With a dirt rear suspension, you'd have to throw it all away and start from scratch.

If you find an asphalt car with a two link or truck arm rear suspension, you can run it as-is without any trouble at all.

Also, a Gold Trak or Triple Trak is just a torque sensing differential, no more or less harsh than a detroit locker.

The big difference is that with a Detroit locker (sometimes called a ratchet diff because of how it works), when it's unloaded (coasting or deceleration) it's unlocked just like an open carrier diff (freewheeling on one side and engine braking on the other). When it's loaded (in fact, the very instant it becomes loaded), it locks up and behaves just like a spool. Both wheels turn at the same speed, regardless of whether you are turning or not. Under power, if you lose traction with one wheel, the other stays hooked, but your overall tractive effort is reduced because one wheel hasn't got a hold of the ground anymore, it is slipping.

With a torque sensing diff, under deceleration both wheels stay connected, but they can also differentiate based on wheel speed (like an open diff). The torque is fed to the tires according to what they can absorb proportional to each other. Now both wheels are engine braking under decel. That's a good thing. When it's loaded, the tires are fed torque according to their proportional ability to handle it. The tire with the most traction gets the biggest share of the torque, so you're not overloading the weaker contact patch by expecting it to keep up with the stronger one. This arrangement results in the system developing the maximum tractive effort available at the time. This is also a good thing. While it's doing all that, the torque sensing diff also still allows the rear tires to differentiate based on wheel speed.

Put simply, under decel, a locker drives like an open diff, while a Gold Trak drives like a limited slip (old Chevy style springs and clutch plates type).

Under accel, a locker drives like a spool, while a Gold Trak drives like a very stiffly sprung limited slip.

Both will work just fine on the street. I would just expect a locker to exhibit a greater tendency towards throttle-on understeer (push under power) than a Gold Trak would.

I'm building a chassis of this type myself. When I've got something worth looking at, I will post up a thread with details. You can click the link in my sig to read about the spindles I fabricated for use in that build as well. They are based off the 3/4 ton Wide Five racing hubs (Winters 007's in this instance). Built entirely from scratch.

Good luck with your project, and don't let nay sayers dissuade you from your vision. Used stock cars can be an awesome jumping off point, if you're careful and pay attention to what you're buying.

 

Ryan

Engineering and fabrication of those spindles is truly impressive. I'll give you a call if I ever win the lottery. Your 36 should be stiff competition for Factory Five's 33. What wheels will you use on the street?

I shared your impression of the lower A-arm mounts I've seen, for MII spindles, under street rods. Nice to have my opinion supported by your experience. I did a field trip to GRT to look into LMS suspension. The problem we saw, with their clip, was that its just so much wider than my little coupe. By the time I sectioned a foot out of their crossmembers, I'd be on my own for geometry anyway.

I've gathered up some balljoints, sleeves and plates, an Appleton R&P, and Autoware software.... so I'm on the way toward becoming a suspension designer. The S10 spindle seem to work for Brunton's stalker, so I'll use them. In my neck of the woods, 4 x 4 S10's are way more common than asphalt LMS, so finding a posi chunk should be no problem. There was an electric locker on craigslist the other day. The idea of a spool on the end of a toggle switch is.... interesting.

I've got the frame pieces cut, from the firewall back. When the computer gives me the mount heights, I should be able to finish the frame rails. Not exactly a "weekend project!"

Lenny

 

I had Diamond Racing Wheel make me a set of custom 16x8 lightweight steel wheels with the backset I needed.

They'll make just about anything for you, so long as they have the hoops and centers to do it with.

Easy to deal with, and not real expensive either. You can get them bare or powder coated.

 

Little Wing

If I had to guess.... looks like a early Tobias dirt track modified. "Kinda makes you want to go hunt up a Gremlin, don't it?"

Lenny

 

yep,,thought it might be helpful though

 

Miss Enid has been on the way-back burner far too long. Too many projects ahead of her in line. Have made some purchases though.... 37 truck rear, 40 passenger front



Note: no spindles. Does someone still make the bolt-on adapters to go modern wide five from the early Ford spindle? Are the sprint-type Ford pattern spindles compatible with an early Ford axle? Is it possible to adapt the T5 to closed driveshaft?

 

just wondering if youve made any progress?

Louie