Not much to update lately. Subzero weather and a bunch of family stuff have kept me out of the garage. I did get out there yesterday and have the intake installed. Now I am checking my 97 bases and getting them lined up. Got one that I am concerned about since the shaft is a bit too loose. May have to rebush it since it has an oversize shaft already. Have to look around to see what I can lay my hands on quickly.
More progress today. I mocked up the generator and the bracket to mount it. I had considered using one of those small Motorola alternators but just did not feel it stayed with the style of the build. I located my old fuel log and roughed that in. Became clear then that I would need to swing the generator out even further for clearance with the log. Ordered a 61 1/2 inch belt that I feel will be just right. Of course, the generator bracket was too short now so I extended it using a short piece from another GM bracket I had lying around for the last ten years. Sat the radiator back in place. Getting close to firing this thing back up. Anxious to see how the 4x2's add to the excitement of driving this old hot rod.
Going in reverse now, so typical of building hot rods. Reading several older articles on the 97's it became clear that I have mismatched bases. Seems there were early and late base designs, the latter having a brass nozzle directly above each throttle blade. This was to improve the idling if what I have read is correct. I have two of each series, so I have pulled this thing apart while I source two of the later units. Fortunately, that was a fairly easy task. Nickthebandit down in Pa had the two I need so they are on their way. Now I am in touch with Uncle Max to get the new bushings and shafts needed to retro the bases. In the meantime, I am thinking of installing a Honda fuel pump in my tank like 51box did. Believe I have figured out a way to retro the existing tank outlet to allow the addition of the pump. Need to pull the outlet out and take a few measurements. Think there is enough room to attach the vertical support bar that the pump gets attached to. Then the rest is pretty straight forward. I will post up some pics when i get into it. Pic of those later bases that i have on the OL496 for reference: (And those steel screws are being replaced as well)
Picked up the new fuel pump today and started looking things over. Looks pretty straight forward. I opted to use the existing plate from the tank rather than buy and revamp the Honda pump assembly. That decision was driven by the fact that I have a 1/4 inch return line from the fuel pressure regulator and I am using another outlet for the tank vent. Therefore, I decided to make a new hangar bracket to support the pump and will weld it to the bottom of the existing plate. Pulled the plate off and removed the two plastic tubes coming from the 3/8 outlets. Glad I am making the change as I had been using the 1/4 outlet for my fuel return which is not what Tanks had designed. Guess they wanted the extra 3/8 outlet to be the return. Regardless, I am changing things around now. I shortened the last tube and will now use that for the tank vent. I had a strip of 1/8 inch flat bar hanging around so I cut two pieces 14 inches long and tacked them together to make a V channel to support the pump. And then attached it to the plate Mocked up the pump next to see what I would need for tubing. Of course, no one at any of the three parts stores have ever heard of submersible fuel line and naturally they don't stock it. Delivery times are out there to late next week. Not inexpensive either, prices range from $19 to $48 a foot. I am going to look around some more and see what I can come up with. Tomorrow I will add the wiring to the unit. I drilled a hole in the plate where I will insert the wires and the I will epoxy them in plac
After much do diligence I have managed to get all four carbs detailed and set in place. Got everything plumbed up and ready for fuel. Filled the radiator up and discovered a big leak in the thermostat housing. This seems to be a repeat thing so I removed the housing and found that it's base appeared to be warped just enough that it may have been the issue. It rocks just a bit when placed on a sheet of glass. I filed the surface down to the point where the rocking was eliminated and reinstalled it. No more leaking! Now on to the fuel. Turned on the new in tank pump and fed fuel into the system. As soon as the fuel bowls filled, we had gas everywhere where it was not supposed to be. The brief moment I had to look at the fuel gauge said it was going past 6, not good at all. I have a Holley regulator so obviously some adjustment was in order. I backed the adjuster all the way out hoping I could get it really low and sneak up on the 2 lbs I needed for those sensitive 97's. I lit off the Olds with the pump off to clear things out. She fired right up but ran rough as hell. Couldn't get her to smooth out so shut her down. Figured I had better pull the plugs. They did not look bad, only one was a bit wet but I did find two wires that were not on tightly. Probably from when I had pulled the plugs when the engine was removed a while back. Put the plugs back in and gave the carbs a shot of fuel. Now she fired up and ran a bit better. Adjusted the timing a bit-that helped it idle better. Then she died. Guess I need more fuel in the carbs but nothing is working now. I can here the pump whinning but no delivery. WTF! Okay now I am pissed. This isn't how it is supposed to go, is it? I pulled the pump out of the tank and found the fuel line disconnected from the pump! Maybe I didn't have the clamp on tight enough. Who knows! Put it all back together but beginning to get suspicious about this pump. When I picked it up from the store, I noticed that it had been reboxed with a Car Quest stick on label and it stated that it was made in China. Hmmm, guess I better borrow my friends pressure tester and verify what this thing is doing. The test did not go well, is that any surprise? I disconnected the carb feed line and attached it to the line feeding the gauge. Opened the bleeder line a bit and stuck that in a gas can, hit the switch, wow pressure immediately ran right on by 9 lbs when I heard a line blow. Well, the jury is in on this pump then. It obviously is the one for the injected Honda! Go figure! Should of known better than to accept a reboxed pump. Got a new one coming now and then I get to start this process all over again. Some days things just don't go as planned. Glad I am not a drinking man
You may start drinking... off subject but just purchased a oil filter for my flathead full flow from orilleys , kind of suspicious of the scotch tape on the box lid but didn't open it in the store. Get 25 miles home, and there was a huge dent in it, pealed paint and smelled of oil. with a oil stain in the bottom of the box...
Darn, the saga continues.........new pump arrived from Rock Auto. Another repackage job with the wrong sock filter, no hardware and no isolation boot. Can't win at times! Reordered a new set from my guys at Advanced, a bit more $ but it may be complete, I hope. Should be here in a couple days. Another slight issue presented itself with those later designed carb bases with the added brass nozzle. Here is what Uncle Max said about those: The 3rd (upper nozzle) squirters in the later EE-1 V shaped base were thought to improve off-idle response. The idle airbleeds – in the little channel adjacent to the idle jets were reduced to .0550” from the .1040” size in the older 97’s. Significantly smaller than the earlier 97’s, to compensate for the airflow signal created by the 3rd nozzles. The nozzles and notched venturis showed up in some South Bend 97’s and all Elmira 97’s with the V shaped base. The trouble is, so many of these things were mixed and matched over the years, it’s hard to say what you might have. At best, if everything’s matching, you’ll more than likely notice some stumbling on a multi carb rig. You might consider looking for four matching V bases without the 3rd nozzle and drilling the airbleeds to .1040” (#37 drill) for smoother operation. Having said all this, you might not want overthink everything and just step on the gas pedal harder! Called Hotrods... For a reason. Following this message I did check each carb and they all have the smaller bleed hole and the notched venturi. All the bodies have the same casting number so I assume that they are about as close to spec now as one can get. I will wait to see about the stumble off idle and go from there. Worse case scenario will mean changing the bases over to non nozzle pieces which I have although all four would require new bushings/shafts. Drilling out the bleed holes is not a big deal either. We will see how it runs after getting by the pump saga.
Can hardly wait to see and hear the finished product. Looks great so far. From the one pic, it looks like a Ford 8” rear end, hard to tell for that pic. Good luck and enjoy every minute.
Thanks Shoovel! That is a large bearing 9 inch from an early Torino if I remember correctly. Had a 2.70 which did not work well with that 1st gear from the 57 Olds gear in the tranny so I switched up to a 3.50 and it is much better.
I’m really not liking all the info you just posted about the 97s. I’m glad you posted it but I’ve got six of the damned things that I’ve got to deal with for my roadster if I want it to look true to the Sam Conrad roadster. I’ve got some work to do. Or I need to figure out what to sell so I can afford six brandy new ones. Lol
The new low pressure pump actually arrived with the correct sock filter and it is installed and working. Now I need to set the pressure regulator and see if this old Olds will run. Of course we are now waiting for the latest nor' easter to arrive for our early spring snow dump. Rumor has it that we might get 12-18 inches of the wonderful white stuff. Emphasis on "might" As soon as we get a fairly warm day I will roll the rod out into the yard and fire it up. Then we will see how all this goes.
Ok, where do I start......it has been a while since I have had much to report. All the usual things that crop up working with multiple carbs etc. have presented themselves. We got the Olds running after fighting with the linkage and dealing with fuel leaks. Running very rich which I anticipated but at least it was running. Disconnected the linkage and balanced the carbs. Seems to be idling well and holding 14-15 inches of vacuum. Reset the timing and cleaned the plugs. Next time around the plugs were just as black. So, I ordered 42 jets from Uncle Max and installed those. Did some final last minute checks and took her out on the road yesterday for a 5 mile run around the block. Carbs seem to function well but have a sticky spot in the linkage that will need some investigation. Plugs have now returned to a light tan which is a promising result. And now some bad news......my backup trans (which we have never used) is in deep trouble. Sounds like 1st gear is tearing apart on deacceleration and a much more distinct whine on acceleration than the other trans previously installed. To add to the drama it also jumps out of 2nd and does not like to shift smoothly from 1st to 2nd. Bottom line is that it has to come out for sure. That means the engine has to come out again. To that end, I got all the front work done yesterday and will finish all the back work today. With any luck it will be ready to pull by noon if i get my butt out of this recliner! Guess i will pull the first trans apart to see if replacing the synchro will fix the issue with that unit. Definitely going to retard my progress but what are you going to do. On a more positive note I found this old A hubcap which fits my steering wheel perfectly and looks the part for this old beast. Hey, you gotta have a win once in a while!
No. used a new ign switch. Dash came empty of switches but did have the instrument panel and clock. No need to test the air circulation ysytem as it was only 55 yesterday, but sunny. That block of wood gets many uses, one of which is to hold the window open far enough so I can get that lower inner molding on. This morning I finished pulling the eng/trans. Got it down to about a 4 hour deal working alone. Pulled the tranny off and did a visual on the internals. Some chipped teeth on the 1st gear but nothing jumps out at me other than that. Will have to see where I go from here.
Frustrating, but glad to see you pushing forward. You have a very cool car, hopefully it will come together soon!
Yesterday I pulled my other tranny off the shelf and decided to tear it apart since it only had one issue as compared to the one currently attached to the Olds. Fairly easy tear down once you get by that ugly circlip on the front of the output shaft. There is hardly any slop in the 2nd gear on the shaft, everything else looks to be in good shape. I have found a nos 2nd gear and have a lead on a nos synchronizer. Going to proceed slowly and check all the fitments and clearances but so far I am not finding much that jumps out at me. Cluster looks to be in great shape and has acceptable end play so I am leaving it in place. Reverse idler looks good also. Now I will go thru each piece carefully to see if I can determine why this thing is kicking out of 2nd. ....
Does transmission share any internal parts with any other transmissions? (Or did you answer that already?)
Many parts exchange or crossover with the BOP line from the 40's up to '57. The synchro is fairly common throughout but the 2nd gear only from 57 and up to 60. 1st/reverse only 57-64 Olds, 57 Pontiac and no Buick I have made on offer on a NOS synchro last night and am waiting to verify some measurements on it. Made an offer on a NOS 2nd as well but no word back yet. Did nothing yesterday as I am in the middle of assisting my elderly cousin with her estate sale and move to a retirement facility. It is going to be a long haul ordeal I am afraid.
New synchro came today and it is a perfect fit. Now to get the 2nd gear here. Might be along tomorrow. In the meantime I will be making new gaskets and working on one of my 97's that is being difficult.
Wow, hard to believe it has been 2 months since I have updated this thread! lets get up to speed here. Reinstalled the tranny and put the engine back in the car. Got out on the road and ran it around enough to get everything warmed up. The transmission still pops out of 2nd on coasting. Not what I expected but par for the course lately with this build. Still having issues getting the engine to return to idle. Seems to want to hang around 900 rpms and my clutch chatter is getting worse. Decided to pull all the carbs off and go thru each again. After some review I decided to just change them all out for the standard base units rather than the units with the extra nozzles. The comment that Uncle Max had made regarding using 4 of them kept ringing in my head "it's going to get crazy". I don't need any more "crazy" in my life so I ditched the old carbs. Of course that meant ordering parts and rebuilding the bases and each carb. More time on the bench but eventually it got done and we got the 4 installed and dialed in. It idles much better now. Took it out on the road and things seemed fairly good. Had to make some minor adjustments to the linkage and adjust one float. Replaced one top that had a hard to see crack that was leaking fuel but all in all it appears to bo have been a good move to change the carbs out. Now a bit of bad news (of course). After doing some stop and go while testing the carbs etc the old (rebuilt) clutch has had enough! Barely was able to get the car back into driveway what with the terrible chatter. So, once again I am faced with pulling this thing apart. While under the car disconnecting all the usual things I also noticed that my new jim dandy $70 rear seal appears to be leaking so we will add that to the list. Searched around to find a replacement clutch which was a bit more difficult than I originally thought. In the end I found that Ram Clutch down in SC manufacturers a replacement B&B long style unit (part #406) so we ordered one of those and grabbed an '89 F250 Super Duty 10 spline 1 1/4 disc from Rock Auto. Last month I took the flywheel over to Albany, NY to get the thing blanchard ground thinking that was the culprit with the earlier chatter but now it appears to have a couple of hot spots after the recent episode with driving it while testing the carbs. While those grinding lines look deep they are not as bad as it appears. Actually I hit the flywheel with 80 grit and it cleaned up fairly well. Those that I have shown this to have vast different opinions on what to do with these hot spots. The older guys (in their 80's) many of whom are old racers say "shit, just run it" while others who I consider to be great mechanics suggest recutting it and facing it with a lathe. At this point I would buy a new one if I could find one. Bendstens might have one, but I have been too busy to call them yet. Got the engine on the stand yesterday and rolled over with the pan off. I have an engine rebuilder buddy coming over to look it over as I am beginning to sense that I am not doing something right with these seals. I am told that the leak is just part of the old engine issue and that they all left witness marks about their territory. I know Tony at Ross remachines the seal area to accept a new neoprene seal without having to use the spacer which is a pain in the ass to get in with the crank in place. Grabbed a dial indicator from a friend and will check the run out on the crank flange and then with the flywheel in place. Need to know that all is well there before I put this back together. Got my two sons coming in from KY and CA for ten days so I bet not much is going to get done for a bit but I will be back soon with more updates.
Man, that clutch and transmission are fighting you for every inch, aren’t they? Have you thought about the material on the clutch disc? Could it be too soft or “grabby”? Is the flywheel surface finish too rough or too smooth for the clutch material? I would put a dial indicator on the bellhousing surface and check for flywheel runout in the friction area. Then do it backwards and check that the bellhousing surface is square to the flywheel surface. It shouldn’t be this hard, huh?
Put a dial indicator on the bell housing and checked the crank flange for run out. It appears to be ok but running the same process with the flywheel installed showed a lot of run out across the face from 2 -9 thousands. I am going to touch base with Andy down at Universal who did the grinding to see what he thinks since they have been surfacing flywheels for a long time. As an option, I talked to Greg at Speed Gems since they show new flywheels for the Olds in their conversion kits. They offer a 143 tooth wheel as they indicate the 176 and 145 tooth ring gear is not available anymore. Their kit includes a gear reduction starter and would require the lower housing from a 145 tooth engine. Little confusion here as I did not get a sense that there up to speed on the Olds other than making a statement that their Olds kits have worked for others without any complaints. Regardless, I am still waiting on the price for the flywheel. I am expecting it to be cost prohibitive.
I never paid attention, I wonder what they register off of when they surface a flywheel? If it’s not the crank mating surface then there’s certainly room for error. If he can chuck it up in a lathe, that might be the way to go.
Probley had some grit or something between the flywheel and its mounting surface of the flywheel grinder holding it out parallel to the grinding stone. Never had much luck using a lathe to cut a flywheel, the hot spots are real hard and don't seem to cut out flat
I get that deja vu feeling reading this and realize that I'm dealing with better luck. Not lots better, but better.
Oh man, what a rollercoaster! I have read this thread over the past few days. Beautiful work and a great looking build. You've certainly had some dramas with it! I certainly think I would be trying to get the flywheel true, and I would also check the alignment with the bellhousing and input shaft if you haven't already. Just to try and eliminate those things as it seems there's obviously something that's unhappy? I've had issues with cars before related to bellhousing and/or release bearing misalignment that make me triple check everything in those areas now.
Have you called Tony at Ross about a new flywheel? It’s unlikely that he’ll be cheaper than others but he probably has some in stock. Mr Brown is probably right about machining a used flywheel. When I was young I used to pickup flywheels from Tony Capanna at Wilcap. He had stacks of flywheel blanks and lathes running cutting new flywheels. 32 lb ‘wheel, $35. I guess I was having a flash-back, happens all the time.
Chatted with Andy over at Universal yesterday. He has asked me to bring the flywheel in so they can look at it. Says that it should be true and he will fix it. Meanwhile, I bolted it up to the crank and torqued it to specs. Installed the dial indicator and marked off segments on the wheel. Started at the bottom near the crank and checked each segment after ensuring that the crank was in the most rearward position at each stop. The indicator shows that the wheel goes from a reference point of 0 to a high of 8 in steps as you move around the wheel. I cleaned the back of the wheel flange and inspected the crank flange. Ran the indicator on the crank at the outer edge and did not see anything unusual. So we will see what Andy thinks. Only issue is that I cannot get over to his shop until the 21st as we have a houseful of company until then......ah, more delays, think I will order snow tires for this thing as it may be winter before I can get this back on the road!
Back on the project again. After much discussion with the techs over at Universal it was decided that they would turn the flywheel again. This time a very senior fellow said he would do it after questioning the younger lad who had done it the last time. It cleaned up nicely and according to the tech had very little run out after the grinding, well within spec. Yesterday, I mounted the wheel back on the engine and cleaned it with brake clean, installed the new Ram clutch after wiping it down as well. Installed the bell housing with two face gaskets (recommended in the Olds manual to avoid leaks) and then checked for excessive run out on the candle stick. Olds manual indicated up to .012 is acceptable. Highest found was .010 so it is going back on. There it is, back together and waiting to go back in the 31. Might get time today to do that in between the many things on the list not the least of which is building a new island in the kitchen for the bride, unloading new trusses for a friends garage, mowing the dam lawn etc etc........you get the picture HA!
The Jalopy Journal
