History Auto racing 1894-1942

Eye-See-Bee? could be 1916

 

We do! The VSCCA holds events mostly on the East Coast with a fair amount of Pre War cars. Severeal owners are here on the HAMB as well.

 

What a great pair of pictures Keith! That the Darracq still exists and the owner will run it is wonderful. Got to love the two knife switches on the "dash"

Herb Kephart

 

Press photo of Cliff Durant June 2, 1920.....

 

Thanks T-head.

Those old press photos are great stuff.

 

Photo captioned...... Brooklands...... 1935 Dick Shuttleworth.....

 

Photo captioned 1927 Brittish GP at Brooklands.....

 

Photo captioned 1936 JCC International Trophy Race......

 

Are the top louveres "reversed"? I started another thread asking if the air flows the same if louvers are in the normal position or punched from the inside, looks like Alfa liked the idea. I know finishing the reversed louver is more time consuming to paint and match the rest of the hood.

 

Bob?? Paint prep? I have photos of race cars being painted with a bug(pump) sprayer.......

 

Sure, the well funded ones, low tech used a brush. Alfa was one of the first to promote flat finishes on race cars I believe. Great to have you back at your keyboard.

 

Thanks. Will do some more searching. Determined to add some pre war road courses to next year's schedule. Babe in the woods with this genre.

 

1904 Circuit Des Ardennes......Albert Clement.... Clement Bayard.....

 

1906 Circuit Des Aredennes .....Weigh in at Bastogne.... Albert Burton Mercedes....

 

http://www.vscca.org/



.

 

Some of the great racing we had at the VSCCA Fall Festival at Lime Rock Park.....

 

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!

Thanks guys

http://s1011.photobucket.com/albums/af233/carl44s/Millers at Milwaukee Mile 2010/?start=all

 

http://oldracers.com/_wsn/page2.html

 

http://www.indymotorspeedway.com/500d-29.htm

 

Jim Dillion...... could you tell us about this Packard power plant that Mr Fire posted over on the Vintage Photo thread?? Was any of this design ever raced or developed from racing efforts of was it all adapted form what was learned from the Liberty ?? Great post Mr. Fire......

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4743867-History-of-inline-6-engines-in-cars

During WWI, Packard's great chief engineer, "Colonel" Jesse Vincent, envisioned the adaptation of Packard's famous military "Liberty" aircraft engine's design into a new, high-revving and very powerful engine for the company's passenger cars, to replace the Twin Six. The prototypes were named "Victory 6" engines, and they featured overhead-camshaft design, and were very lightweight and powerful, in conjunction with their aircraft origins of design. In a time when the most powerful luxury cars had perhaps 85 horsepower, this new Packard powerplant promised nearly 200hp, with giant torque figures of over 500 lb./Ft, and the complete engine weighed over 100 pounds less than the Twin Six, too.

 

David, I haven't thought of this engine in years. When I ran across some pics of it (similar pics to these-maybe a bit of a different angle) it piqued my curiosity but I never found much on them. I looked in Vincent's diaries but not knowing how he referred to it hurt any chance of figuring out more. Also there was a period of time during the mid to late teens where he did not keep a diary-sad as he was doing some pretty cool stuff during that time.

Not much has been written about these motors but one can only make assumptions I guess. From all appearances it appears to be half of a 12 Liberty so cubic inch would be somewhere around 825 ci in six cylinder stock form. Everything on the engine itself looks to be Liberty,even the carb is similar to what they used at Packard. The trans appears to be Twin Six. There were claims as to the high horsepower and torque and I can only assume that Jesse Vincent may have used some of the knowledge gained with Packard racers in wringing all he could out of this motor. If it was to be called victory it would have to earn its reputation and they very likely could have destroked it a tad to get a few more RPMs out of it.

My guess is they only built the one example although I wish I could be proven wrong. The depression of the early 20s after Woodrow Wilson poor economic policies and the costs of war may very well have ended the project but that too is just speculation. Vincent was a gear head and he may have just been playing with some parts in the experimental department to see what they could come up with and once it was done they moved on to another project-who knows maybe the 23 racers was on his mind and he moved on.

Cool motor wish it was still around-Jim

 

That is one beautiful engine! What a shame that more wasn't done with the design--

Herb Kephart

 

Jim....Thanks for you insight..... It sure is an incredible piece....The valve gear looks so similar to so many of the racing engines we have seen. Could you imagine what that would be like transplanted into Twin Six. It would leave all of the other 825 CI big 66's in the dust.

I am working on a Thomas 825 CI T-Head at the moment and know the power they and also the big Pierce-Arrows T-Head 66's put out having driven several.
The HP figures they are quoting are more than double of the T-Heads.....Thanks Again, T-H

 

Interestingly In Bev Kimes monumental Packard history she writes that 52 6-cyl. engines were built by Thomas Morse and Wright and I am assuming they were straight sixes. One was also installed in a Curtiss PN-1 night fighter but it was only a little faster than the bombers it was intended to intercept so the project was abandoned.

She states that fifteen 8 cyl. engines were also built but suffered from vibration problems.

Watch this incredible video I found of the Liberty engine of DH-4 airplane assembled and installed at Air service production center at Romorantin in France. It is a little slow at first but very interesting.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/6...eman_assembling-engine_installation-of-engine

Photos in my files from a newspaper in Rochester NY that states these Liberty components were made in the city.



An interesting cross section drawing....





The first engine which was an eight cylinder.

 

Photos of the GP Mercedes and at the bottom the Stutz OHC engine in Earl Coopers racer.

The Liberty engine of coarse has two valves per cylinder as opposed to four per cylinder of the earlier designs.

Compare the first photo of the GP Mercedes and second photo of the Liberty if you have any doubts were the concept came from minus two valves....





GP Mercedes exhaust side....



Coopers Stutz which still exists and was gear driven.....

 

The Rapp/BMW aircraft engines, also similar in design [and aircraft engines had been put into road cars (see Harry Hawkers Sunbeam/Mercedes)]

III




IV



..............................



http://www.enginehistory.org/Before1925/Liberty/LibertyNotes.shtml



"Liberty on Turbocharger Test Rig at Pike's Peak (NARA)"

Check the names that come to light in the article http://www.enginehistory.org/Before1925/Liberty/LibertyNotes.shtml

 

I came across these three excellent Mercedes racing engine photos and one of a Blitzen Benz earlier while looks for Liberty Photos.....

This is very early perhaps pre 05 T-Head with make and break ignition. Note the rear mounted exposed timing gears on both engines.



Slightly later OHV.



The Blitzen Benz.



And the much later SSK.

 

http://www.oldtimer24.com/2009/11/03/vor-100-jahren-rekordjager-mit-215-liter-hubraum-der-benz-200-ps-genannt-%E2%80%9Eblitzen-benz%E2%80%9C/

"Motor:
Benz Rennwagenmotor
Arbeitsverfahren: Viertakt-Otto
Zylinderzahl/-anordnung: 4 / Reihe
Hubraum: 21 500 cm3
Bohrung x Hub: 185 x 200 mm
Leistung: 147 kW bei 1600/min
Drehmoment: 36 mkg bei 1000/min
Verdichtungsverhältnis: 1:5,8
Höchstdrehzahl: 1650/min
Ventile: hängend, 2 je Zylinder, seitliche Nockenwelle, Antrieb über Zahnräder
Gemischaufbereitung: 1 Horizontal-Rundschiebervergaser
Kraftstoffförderung: Druckluft-Handpumpe, von Beifahrer betätigt
Schmierung: Zunächst Tauchschmierung, später Druckumlaufschmierung über Zahnradpumpe und Frischölzugabe
Anlasser: Andrehkurbel, Anlasssummerzündung
Zündung: Hochspannungs-Magnetzündung, 2 Bosch D4 Magnetzünder Zündverstellung: von Hand über Hebel am Lenkrad
Kraftstofftank: 73 l"

 

David you have to remember that DePalma's 1914 GP Mercedes spent many days in the experimental department at Packard. My grandfather and Carl Smith (whose great grandson I met through the HAMB) worked in the experimental department on the development of the Liberty. Carl was really into racing and later attempted to qualify at Indy (the only Smith to ever do so). My grandfather and Carl who remained friends until they died liked working as a team on on a number of projects and the racers. My grandfather told me that DePalma's Mercedes was a regular there and he and Carl one day were required to mount up DePalma's engine on what he called a jack stand and run the engine at different angles and different loads etc. When the car was first shipped to this country with DePalma on his return trip from the 1914 GP at Lyons, the first stop was the Packard experimental department where a new body was made. When DePalma's Mercedes was prepared for the 1915 Indy it was prepared in the Packard experimental department and Packard replaced the Caudel (I believe) with a Packard carburetor. Jesse Vincent acted as DePalma pit boss or crew chief at Indy and history reminds us that they won at Indy with that car. When the 299 was built starting late in 1915 the DePalma Mercedes was in the experimental department (my grandfather told me it was right alongside the 299) and I found an article where it stated that DePalma's Mercedes found its way to Packard to be rebuilt in November of 1915. I believe DePalma's Mercedes was rebuilt at Packard several times so they were very familiar with the car before they built the Liberty.

Not long after the DePalma Mercedes was bought by Frank and Herbert Book and they raced it and used this as a model, so to speak, in building what some have called a Mercedes copy. I have never seen a picture of the engine of this "copy" although I have pictures of the car. It was shaped somewhat similar although the bodywork was really superb. It was called the Detroit Special and ran at several tracks in 1917 and on and also ran at Indy in 1919. It finished its career out west in 1920 before returning Detroit with the Books. The Book (ex DePalma) Mercedes may have stayed out west and raced its guts out until only God knows what happened to it. Don't know what happened to either car up to the present but I know that Frank Book kept the Detroit Special and used it on the streets of Detroit until the 30s. I do not believe it was ever raced again so it should have survived-sad it has not I believe.

Keep in mind that besides having DePalma's GP Mercedes in the experimental department when developing the Liberty, Packard also had the big Sunbeam 12 (Toodles V). I am not very familiar with the big Sunbeam enough to know what if anything in the way of DNA made it into the Liberty.

I have a copy of the blueprint for the 1914 Mercedes hanging in my shop and of course it is in German so I now nothing of what it says pretty much but it has some useful information for work on the 299-If I ever get my backside back in gear. I know some of these pics have been posted before but thought they might enhance the post-Jim

DePalma in the Mercedes after Packard rebodied the car-sorry for the poor pic it was copied out of a magazine. I have seen better bodywork but I guess it worked. Note the license plate so they could drive it around the city of Detroit and probably open it up a bit here and there on Grand Boulevard.



Here is a pic of the Detroit Special when it was out west late in 1919 or early 1920 I don't remember which right now without my notes. The uniforms say Detroit on them-same uniforms they wore at Indy. Frank and Herbert acted as DePalma's 1914 GP Merc pit men (wearing nice white uniforms) before they bought the car and help finance Ralph in 1916.



Then here is Toodles V with DePalma at the wheel vs Burman in the big Benz. Packard owned the Sunbeam at this time.



Here Packard playing with a couple of their speed cars at Sheepshead. Vincent in the Typhoon (modified Twin Six) and DePalma ran Toodles. Whomever did the bodywork on DePalma's Merc also was learning his skills on Typhoon. This picture does not show that the tails were very similar-very angular.