History Auto racing 1894-1942

Is anyone attending MILLERS AT MILWAUKEE this weekend? If so, please take lots of photos and post them here.

www.harrymillerclub.com/

 

Kurtis, you have heard this before:Mr. Bugatti just copied from the Miller genious. Is this so in your opinion? (not a Mr. Bugatti fan myself)

 

Jules Goux......Peugeot

 

Jean CHASSAGNE ....................... SUNBEAM

 

Dario Resta..............Sunbeam

 

Lee Guiness...........Sunbeam

 

There are many people here {Michael Ferner, Jim Dillon, 37Kid, Cris} who are probably more knowledgeable on this subject and are better qaulified to give you a thorough response than myself but from what i have read the Bugatti T51, T54 and T57 cyl. heads or valve train were influenced by the Miller 91, two of which were passed onto Ettore Bugatti by Leon Duray......but Mr. Miller was influenced by Ernest Henry, or if you believe in W.F.Bradley's admission that the three "Charlatans", Goux, Boillot and Zuccarelli were the brains behind the DOHC design. Personally, i see it as a copy of a copy in some respect. Each designer was influenced by someone before.

BTW, Have you been watching the COPA AMERICA?

 

Tks for your reply. No time for football in my life Kurtis. Two monopostos and another on the way keep me very bussy.

 

How about a ride along with this?



http://www.vimeo.com/24844380

at 31 and a half minutes it might be a bit long, but worth it. Especially around the 5 minute mark. Really cool vid.

 

http://www.vimeo.com/24664153

This is another vid of that type 37 Bugatti. Practice session... in the RAIN! Looks very very wet. Gets it pretty sideways around the 4 minute mark. Very neat stuff. GoPro camera's should be mandatory equipment at these Historic meets.

 

I agree with Kurtis and would add a few comments.
First, with characters like Miller, Bugatti, Ferrari, and Shelby, it's important to understand the facts versus the mythology around them. The thing that links each of these people isn't their engineering prowess or machining skills or design abilities, it's their ability for organizing talent. Without the people they were able to hire, none of them would have gained the reputations they went on to have.

In the case of Miller (and I think this is one of the main things Borgeson was trying to point out with his "Twin Cam" book) there's a direct line drawn between the work and concepts of the Charlatans on to Miller's engines and beyond. The importance of the exposure to the inner workings of the Burman/Peugeot engine by Miller also cannot be understated.

As far as Miller's "engineering" ability goes...well, read your histories and draw your own conclusions. For me, Miller was an often brilliant conceptualist, able to dream up an overall (and very rough) idea that he would then turn over to people who actually knew what they were doing (Goosen, Offenhauser, etc.) to make work. Like Shelby (and the much-adored but absolutely horrible Preston Tucker) Miller was really a salesman, a product of the times, a larger-than-life personality who could romance you into bankrolling his dreams. His concepts—when they were successful—were wildly so. When they failed they could kill, could embarrass, or could take down his entire company. His success, on the other hand, was EASILY equal parts his employees' and his. Without Fred and Leo and others (who actually made the concepts viable and successful) Miller may have never made it anywhere near as far as he did.

Bugatti copying Miller? It's well-documented BUT as Kurtis said, it should be seen more as a copy of a copy. Bugatti actually seemed to keep his saw sharp for a lot longer than Miller did as far as designing was concerned. I believe (and I could be way wrong on this) Bugatti had greater mechanical aptitude than Miller. He could conceptualize, draft, spec, refine, and problem-solve to a far-greater degree. Much is made of his artistry but I think that covers up the fact that the cars (and other products) that came from him were technically innovative in their own ways, not simply nice to look at or fast. I'm by no means a Bugatti fan but I can't deny their successes or the fact that Bugatti was definitely a smart man.

Whoa, just typed way too many words.

Cris

 

I agree with you Cris, the craftmanship and finish of a Miller or Bugatti race car are equal IMO, Bugatti just produced more.

 

Saacha, I appreciate both Miller and Bugatti but realize both men put their pants on one leg at a time. Both men were very accomplished and put out such a great product since they paid great attention to detail. Genius may be a bit of an over-used word possibly, although both men have their names on great marques for good reason. Cris makes some very good points. The only person that I may add to the mix may be Myron Stevens who was responsible for enveloping these cars in slippery bodywork. When I discovered he built his headers from flat sheet (I believe his first set took him 80 hours-later 40 hours), I became one of his biggest fans.

The Miller 91 (one of which sold yesterday at the Miller Meet for $260,000 + 10% commission on top of that) were in my opinion the pinnacle of racing engines. Miller had the whole package with form and function and they got incredible mileage. Bugatti only had to read the press and take one look and he was no fool. Copying the concepts that worked made good sense. By the same token as Cris mentioned, the Burman/Peugeots and the Resta Peugeot being studied extensively by Miller (plus other ideas-cars-engines), got him scratching his head as to new ideas.

I would wish that someone would do a definitive study on the origins of all of the various valve train successes of the early OHC cars. Borgeson's Twin Cam book would be a good starting point but I believe there is a whole buch that has not been written and I do not believe that the Charletans pulled out a clean sheet of paper and just drew up what OHC originality was floating around in their minds. If you look at the Lion-Peugeots you may find that the engineers dealing with the voiturettes knew what they were doing as well and you may even stumble on Ettore Bugatti and his involvement with the company. The more you study the early racers you find there were a few guys that were on the ball. In addition Bugatti had been around OHC technology for many years before adopting Miller's work, but as Cris pointed out Miller lifted a few ideas from here and there as almost all of the OHC designers/builders of the day.

The great thing about both Bugatti and Miller is that if you have oil running through your veins it is not unusual to just stand and stare at the workmanship created by both men. They say the Miller 91 is automotive jewelry and I for one cannot disagree.

When I get a little extra time I will upload some pictures from the Miller Meet. I ran into Michael Ferner there and he appeared to be having great fun on his German version of a American Vintage racing walkabout.-Jim

 

Myron Stevens! Of course! I neglected him and a few others. The more I've read about him and Offenhauser, Goossen, Deidt, Winfield, etc. the more I understand what they actually accomplished...and how Miller himself was at times much more in the vein of a tragic hero rather than a genius. It doesn't change the fact that engines like the 91 were groundbreaking in areas like specific output/horsepower to displacement ratios but sometimes you wonder what his crew would have come up with had they been left to their own devices far earlier in their careers. As it was they created amazing things but those things were often born out of compromised concepts.

Jim, what kind of money did all those four bangers bring at the auction?

Cris

 

Big difference between the Americans and Bugatti

The American stuff was easier to work on and get race ready. AND got easier as time went on

I don't think that Bugatti had ANY RESPECT for his help! He would throw a bunch of humans at a job rather than design that was easily stripped and repaired. AND The Bugs break ALL THE TIME! So you can't say they didn't need service.

There are Bugs that you must remove the rear axle to replace a clutch. Just stupid....

And you better be ready to make your own tools to perform service also.

Once I suggested that we all form a mechanics tour to piss on the old man's grave...... One of the guys said it had already been done AND several times.

 

No problem!
I knew the gentlemen i mentioned would come through with their own thoughts. Three of them have left comments and now we await "Mr Sharp" to see what he has to say on the subject.

Please post some photos of the monopostos you are working on. It's OK if they are off topic. I'd like to see what you have done with the Model T.

 

BIG BUCKS. www.mecum.com/auctions/auction_results.cfm

 

Cris, Kurtis is right the engines like most everything at auction went for a pretty healthy amount. I bid on some Rudge Whitworth 25" wheels and hubs but let them go to a phone bidder for $5000. They were not really what I need but I figured I could take them home if the price was right. I also had my bidder paddle ready in case one of the engines couldn't find a decent bid but no such luck. Then again I need more projects like Carter needs liver pills. I can't get done what I have.

There were some prints I figured I would bid to $50 and they went for $400. Vintage auto racing memorabilia apparently is not feeling the effects of any recession.

As for Michael responding, he is still on a holiday for a few days yet before he returns home.

Jim tell us what you really think.-Jim

 

excellent marketing call for that auction house.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMrNqR1B-cs

Here is another really cool onboard/helmet cam vid, this time its a 1930 Miller. The quality ain't so great, but its still a good vid. The driver is really gettin' on it pretty good, making lots of passes, sliding it around corners until the engine lets go on the straight at the end of the video.

 

I wonder if all these engines are going into cars..........or will they become cars?

 

That's the first time I've seen that written so succinctly Cris, I agree with Jim that genius doesn't really fit in light of Goosen and Offenhauser's talents.
In a similar vein I got to see how the media and mythology surrounding the local Britten motorcycle astounded those involved and the collective ideas and labors of several became a genius of the visionary-driver.

 

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http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemLarge.aspx?itemID=51924

<INPUT style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" id=ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_imgItemLarge title="View Larger Image" name=ctl00$ContentPlaceHolder1$imgItemLarge src="http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/_DAMl/image/17/137/hood_03421r.jpg" type=image>

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http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemLarge.aspx?itemID=51918

 

Guys as promised here are some pics of the Miller Meet. They were taken with my little pocket camera so they will not win any awards I am quite sure. I tried to take some pics on the track but my pics stunk. With the sun and lack of being able to see the liquid screen on the camera the track pics are pitiful-sorry about that.

Also I have tried to load some pics twice today and my computer has not cooperated, so these will have to do for awhile. I will load more tomorrow for whatever they are worth. Maybe there are some others that took better pics. Lets hope so-Jim