Yes the Goodwood festival of speed is something that all of you should try to attend. They do an incredible job of it and everything is so well done. The English people were very friendly and helpful. The machinery you will see is just incredible and if you like old things the country is full of them. To drive around there is a delight to see the cities, towns and the country side. They arrange the cars under a series of very professional tents with like cars and periods together. There is full access to everyone to closely inspect the cars and talk with the participants. The English people are very interested in our american cars and enthusiastic about automobiles in general. In fact I talked at length with a women that keeps a set of the original pistons out of one the the famous ERA racing cars in her china closet in the dining room for all to see !!!!
There also is a pretty decent article in Antique Automobile May 1965, entitled An Account of the Life and Times of John Walter Christie by Arthur Lee Homan and Keith Marvin with Peter Helck and John M. Peckham. Has quite a few pictures and some good text. I cannot state with certainty as to the amount of research that went into the text but it looks like they spent some time.-Jim
David & Jim, thanks for the info about Porter and the F.R.P. I didn't know such a car existed. If i could be a pain in the backside a little while longer, what can you guys tell me about the car Washington Roebling raced at one time? It might have been before the Mercer and i think it was named after him. Is this car a Mason? Here is some great info about the Minnesota State Fair races where i found the same photo ... www.usfamily.net/web/stauffer/Minnrace.htm
Kurtis, David may know a bit more on the real early stuff but information is a bit difficult to come across at least with pictures to support everything. The Mercer (Trenton NJ) evolved from most likely the Walter and the Sharp Arrow. As I understand the Walter Automobile Company had moved from Brooklyn to Trenton NJ so it was in Roebling's backyard. William Sharp was a local photographer who allegedly designed his own make that looked remarkably similar to what the Mercer would become. Whether he copied Roebling and Planche or they copied him could only be a guess on my part. In addition once Walter moved their operation to Trenton Roebling started working with the chief Walter engineer, Etienne Planche (later to hook up with Louis Chevrolet in the design of his second set of Frontenac designs of the 3 liter formula). Planche's design was an L-head and it was his L-Head more than likely that powered the very earliest Mercers. There is also some early references that the early Mercers were powered by a Beaver L-Head engine (built in Milwaukee) so due to a lack of research I may have to sound real wishy-washy in this regard. I have read Planche was Mercer's first engineer and was replaced by Finley Porter who "perfected I suppose" his own rendition of the T-head. From what I have gathered Mercer went into business in 1909 and Roebling had been playing with his Roebling-Planche speed car in 1908. I remember seeing a real fuzzy photo of what was claimed to be the car but it would not copy at all. I have also read that the Mercer which Roebling drove and finished second in the Savannah Challenge race in November of 1910 was really the Roebling-Planche car. Although I researched this some time ago, my research was not bullet proof by any means and I have not researched it since the eighties. Today with the internet there very well may be much more out there. I would defer to David or others (possibly Tim Kuser) who have spent some time researching this topic. Hopefully there are some pics out there for comparison. The only photo I have of Roebling with a speed car is the Motor Age article of December 17, 1910 standing next to his Mercer in the Savannah Challenge. I don't have it scanned into my computer but I saw David post a portion of the same pic so he may have it handy. The sad part I guess is that Washington Roebling II was a real sportsman that could have helped the development of the Mercer and was truly inspirational in its early development. He never got to see it turn into the truly great car it became as he perished in 1912 on the Titanic.-Jim
I believe the Sharp Arrow Speedabout was a different car from the Roebling Planche Speed car and I also believe the Sharp was built in 1908. From what i have run across the Sharp Arrow was a 392.8 ci car that actually raced in September of 1909 placing 5th in a race in Lowell and winning a New York Road race on September 29, 1909. There is a photo or two of this car out there. I have one photo of it but once again I do not have it scanned into my computer. I do not think it is attractive as the Mercer (in the lower cowl area) As I said I am not sure if the Sharp Arrow came first or the Roebling Planche.-Jim
There are 3 main stories about Walter Christie that have been written since about 1961. Tom Saal reprinted a story from the Antique Automobile May-June 1965, entitled An Account of the Life and Times of John Walter Christie by Arthur Lee Homan and Keith Marvin with Peter Helck and John M. Peckham. This was actually first published in the Upper Hudson Valley Automobilist. The research was well done, the authors had access to the collection of one of Christie's investors, H. Tredwell. They also spoke to Ned Blakely who drove the GP Christie at Ormond in 1908. Automobile Quarterly also did a great story on Christie, Stan Grayson wrote it. He was able to interview one of Christie's machinists, I believe. Then there is Steel Steads Christie, written by Walter Christie's adopted son. It is unfortunately not of the quality of the other two stories. I believe Louis Chevrolet did drive the 1906 Christie in two events at Ormond that year. He probably drove in the 100mile Minneapolis Cup and the 30 mile race for American cars.
The Grand Prix Christie was built in late 1906. The 'Oldfield' car was built in the winter of 1908/9. They were the last two Christie racers. Barney drove Christie's last and fastest racer from 1912 to 1916. Walter Christie drove it in 1909 a few times, and went to Ormond Beach in 1910 planning to set the World Land Speed record. Unfortunately for him, Barney showed up with the Blitzen Benz and took the honors. However, from 1912 to 1916 Barney used the old Christie as part of his team of cars. The 20 liter Christie was only good for setting one lap records, and Barney set them all over the country.
A big thank you to Lee Stohr, Gnichols, Model A Keith, Fur Bisquit, Jim Dillon, Kurtis, '37Kid, and others for all your information and pictures of this killer time in racing. I have little knowledge to give of this time period but very much enjoy what you guys have taken the time to share. And to the new guy, T-Head, thanks for the short lived thread on AACA, BigPeter has a habit of screwing things up with too much control.
Thanks for all the information on Christie so far. I'll be in Hillsboro Oregon once or twice a year so if anyone knows a place where I can buy books or magazines on Christie please let me know. Being a engineer myself I find the designs of Christie fascinating. I would like to see more detailed photos of the cars. Does anyone know if a Christie car still excists today?
Thanks Jim. It is the Planche-Roebling car i was referring to. I remember seeing the name of the car in the results of a smaller race at Savannah i think but i don't recall any reference to Planche. Ettiene Planche also worked for a number of firms in Europe, including Peugeot before arriving in America. Obviously he was a very capable draftsman/engineer. I did a little digging and found some info and pics of the Sharp Arrow. Some info of a surviving car and a little history... www.motorbase.com/auctionlot/by-id/2108865769 This photo is of William Sharp seated in the winning car at the 1908 Garden City Sweepstakes race. One of a number of races that christened the new Long Island Motor Parkway two weeks before the start of the Vanderbilt Cup.
Marc, I think one of the Christie fire engine tractors may exist, but I've never read anything about the race cars surviving.
Marc, Send me an email and I will give you Tom Saal's contact. I'm pretty sure you can order the Christie story from Tom. All other Christie material must be gathered from used book and magazine sellers. If you visit Oregon, I would be happy to show you my Christie stuff. No one thinks any Christie cars or parts exist. Fire engine tractors, yes. Lee leestohr@teleport.com
The Automobile Quarterly article on Christie by Stan Grayson is in Vol 14 #3. They can be found on e-bay sometimes. Maybe at Abebooks.
Page 1, post 12 has great pictures of the stripped down Grand Prix Christie. I like to call this the 1907 Christie, or just the GP Christie. It was built in late 1906 for the 1907 French GP. Christie raced it a lot in 1908, mostly in fixed shows with Barney Oldfield. Possibly Walter needed the money, and it was lucrative. The photos shown on page 1 are probably late 1908. The original radiator and bodywork are gone. An extra tire is added to the outside front wheel, presumably to reduce understeer on the short dirt ovals of the day. The low speed gearing has been removed from the transmission. It's just 4 cylinders of 7.25" bore and stroke, transmitted directly to each front wheel off either end of the crankshaft. No power wasting transmission gears or rear axle gears. The crankshaft is inline with the front axles, and directly attached to the front axles through cone clutches on each end of the crankshaft. Supposedly timed at 120mph in testing on public roads around New York City !
For pictures, Flick'r runs a nice site. There is a decent thread over there on currently operating Edwardian Race cars.
Bently Speed Six - 'The Blue Train Special' So named to 'honour' the race ..........not the car that beat the train. . .
Hey, I'm just a fan / lurker on this thread ... any photos I've quoted came from a far better source than me! Gary
1929/35 Pacey-Hassan 4 1/2" Bentley Special Pictured at Shelsley Walsh Built by EW Pacey and brother in law EW Saunders with the help of Walter Hassan: they designed a narrow chassis frame with semi-elliptic suspension all round and tubular crossmembers. Chassis side members were by Rubery Owen. Initial building and development cost were less than GPB 500,- The original 4,5 litre engine came from Pacey's racing Bentley and was modified by boring out to a diameter of 101 mm, using stronger rods and Martlett pistons. Between the block and crankcase up to 6 compression plates could be fitted to in- or decrease compression so that the use of methanol/benzol fuels was possible. This engine was worn out by 1937. Replacement was a 3 litre block bored tot 82 mm on top of a 4,5 bottom half which was stronger, and supercharged by a Zoller compressor driven of the front of the crankshaft. The results were not as expected and the car was replaced by the Bowler Hoffman Bentley Special. During WW2 it was hidden together with another Bentley Special, the Barnato Hassan. After WW2 it was rebuilt as a two-seater by Geoff Cramer in "Zagato Alfa Romeo style". In the 1960's the engine was rebuilt to 4,4 litre specification again (101 x 140 mm) by father and son Morley with the help of Walter Hassan, It was returned to single-seater configuration in the early seventies. Somewhere it also got 2 extra brakes (on the front axle) and the brakes were upgraded to hydraulic operation. 1936 Gold Star trophy: 1st place 122,53 mph winning the 120 mph badge Brooklands 1936: clocked at 129.03 mph 1936 500 mile: 2nd place 115.96 mph 1937 500 mile: 8th place 120.01 mph . .
Pacey-Hassan Special at Brooklands 1937 500 mile race laping at an average of 120 mph . . edit: 1000th post well cool !
Keith, FB is correct. This is from the 1912 GP de I'ACF. The Sunbeams finished 1-2-3 in the Voiturettes class at Dieppe but because of a shortage of entries in the GP the light cars were racing for places in the main event. The Sunbeams did quite well finishing in the top five places. Victor Rigal was 3rd and Dario Resta in the #17 placing 4th, only 27 and 28 minutes respectively behind the big Fiat S74 of Louis Wagner and the 5th place #52 Sunbeam of Emile Medinger finishing a further 20 minutes behind. The fourth Sunbeam was driven by Gustave Caillios to a DNF with engine troubles. The last photo in your post is the 1st placed Sunbeam driven by Kenelm Lee Guiness at the 1914 Tourist Trophy at the Ilse of Man. 16 laps of just under 6okm long for a total of 965km. Just over 10 hours of driving. The first photo below is Dario Resta in the 4th placed Sunbeam at the 1912 GP de l'ACF and the other photo is Resta again in a Sunbeam at the 1913 GP de l'ACF where it finished 6th. Four cars were entered by the factory for the '13 race with Jean Chassagne placing 3rd and the other two driven by Kenelm Lee Guiness, crashing and Gustave Caillois DNF with a faulty tierod.
Kurtis, sorry to take so long with this. Washington Roebling knew Vanderbilt and in 1908 announced he was having a racing car built by Etienne Planche for the race with a 1193 cu. in. engine and it was to be capable of 140 mph. It was constructed at the Roebling Wire Mill and when finished was described by his uncle...... " It goes like hell and spits flames in all directions ". He first ran it at Sea Grit NJ at the Labor Day races and won the 1 km race in 30 seconds and the mile in 50 seconds. I have not found any evidence of it racing past then. The production automobile was based on this car but with 50 hp that I am guessing had an engine of half its size. The cars were quite expense and in spite of being well promoted there really was no interest outside of the families. At this time the Walter Co. decided to build lower priced cars and the Mercer was born from this effort, named after Mercer County NJ. The 1909 models were built with L-head Beaver motors and were quite good cars. One driven by a Ferdy Roebling won a very tough 162 mile run called the Delaware Valley Endurance Run. The Walter Company fell way behind financially and the Roeblings and Kusers foreclosed on the Company. At that point William White who married into the Roebling family became the General Manager and in late 1909 brought out the new Mercer which was also Beaver powered. It was engineered by Charles Roebling . It was a very successful automobile and in 1910 Porter was hired away from the Worthington Pump Co. and he changed the car to a Continental engine and made detail changes. In the summer of 1910 he designed the World famous automobile that we all love the T-Head Mercer. Washington Roebling finished 2nd with it at the Savannah Challenge Race in 1910 and from that point it grew into one of the most famous automobiles ever. Image T. Kuser
No need to apologize T-Head. Roebling also entered a car in the 1910 American Grand Prize a day after the Savannah Challenge you referred to. This car was listed as an Roebling wearing the #1 but it states that it did not appear/did not front for the start. This car by all likelihood could be the Roebling-Planche that you have posted a picture of. It certainly fits the time frame between the Sharp Arrow and the Mercer. Infact all three seem to have the same DNA in some respects. I haven't been able to find much info about the Walter Co. except for a page or two but this only spoke of the manufacture of trucks. Again, excellent info David. THANKS.
Yea, well you guys make me feel like an idiot!! I know so very little of this time in racing history, but I enjoy reading your posts. Hope to put a face with your names at Hershey sometime.
Interesting article that Dan Strohl the great and investigative reporter has on Hemmings Blog about Bentel the West Coast Mercer Dealer. http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/...ado-and-the-mercer-ascot-speedway/#more-20600
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