I can't remember if this has been posted here. It's a bit interesting from a track from way back..... HG http://users.telenet.be/les.consultants.bvba1/sitges/
There is some absolutely amazing stuff that has been posted in the last two days! Somehow,I`m not getting e-mail notification. I was busy photographing modern dirt track racing over the weekend,so it will take me awhile to get caught up here.
More Stars The 15hp. Star that won the Class 'E' event at Brooklands in 1912. Driven by Dick Lisle. Courtesy of Peter Lisle. . .
Dick Lisle and a different version of his 'Comet'. Seen outside the works in Nelson Street. Courtesy of the late Jim Boulton. . .
The later 11.9hp. car, introduced in June 1921 became a successful competitor in club events and at Brooklands. Two 11.9hp. Stars were entered in the 1922 Scottish Six Days Light Car Trial and outclassed the competition. They were driven by Dick Lisle and Cecil Cathie, one winning the gold medal, the other coming in second. Cecil Cathie was Stars chief tester and works driver. The gold medal winning car went on to be much-travelled after being sold to a gentleman in Australia. Once there it was driven for about 11,000 miles, and then purchased by a New Zealander, who entered it in numerous competitions in New Zealand and broke many records previously held by larger cars. A well known Star enthusiast was Malcolm Campbell, an ex-Star agent. He raced a special single-seater 11.9hp. narrow-track Star and was successful in the Easter 1924 meeting at Brooklands, winning the 75m.p.h. Short Handicap at 73.25m.p.h. and lapping at 79.3m.p.h. He also entered his Star in the 75m.p.h. Short Handicap (75 Short) in the autumn meeting at Brooklands later that year. As previously, he finished in first place, crossing the finishing line at 79.5m.p.h. Cecil Cathie driving his Star racing car in Belfast. Courtesy of Peter Lisle. . .
A Cooper Front drive, check out the thread on the Mullin Automotive Collection, be sure to click on the link to the collection to see more cars.
T-Head, great stuff! Outstanding!! Thnx for posting!!! One thing puzzles me, perhaps you can help out: Are you saying that "your" drop-frame Duesey has a 16-valve engine? I always understood that the drop-frames all had the 8-valve WB engines, and the early straight frames the 16s, and that the 16s didn't fit the old drop-frame chassis because of the increased stroke and the second camshaft. Am I wrong?
David I didn't realize it was the one car (seemed incredible) I found a bunch of restoration pictures of it at stevesauto.com and some interesting reference and before restoration pictures of the white body. I know how much race cars can get changed and also how they can gain their sibling's and distant relative's provenance, there's something odd about the story of Kline approaching Duesenberg for an engine in 1914 and fitting it to Jimmy Jr when there's no outward sign of it in May 1917 I'd love to know more about the car or cars and the Kline Kar 6 which seems to have been a runaway success and a popular weapon in the region. I found an interesting 1907 story about a forthcoming meet where they'd secured the Gentlemen's Driving Track (or Park) adjacent to Pimlico and banked the turns but couldn't find any reports of the meet. In the same year the AAA chief was confidently saying he was going to get circle track racing banned .
YES! If I had my pick I'd take the orange roadster/cabrolet, nice lines and great headlights that you don't often see on a Bug. It would be nice to get the history on the Cooper front drive.
Michael, those are all very good questions about the differences. Actually they both bolt right in to the same frame. The crankcase and top of the engine are of different but Fred stayed with the same exact mounting that he used for the eight valve. Look at the castings that bolt to the back of the 8 & 16 valve crankcases. This casting surrounds the flywheel and clutch and attaches to the frame cross member behind the engine. I think that Fred was also thinking overtime because he added the fins to it and used it as a way of drawing heat away from the crankcase! Kind of a big oil cooler.The fins also strenghten it but I believe it would be strong enough with out them. The front mounting on both is also the same. A round projection off of the front of the timing cover sits in a round bracket which lets it move with the flexing of the car. This way the crankcase in not a stressed member. So it all fits right in and I believe one of the other double drop frame teams cars also had a 16-valve installed, this was done late in their run in 1915-16 . Left photo of 8-valve. More info on why they went to the 16-valve when I have more time. Look at the photo that ehdubya found of the Kline car front engine mount, this shows what I was trying to describe. Third Photo.
On page #1 of this superb thread there was posted the following image of what I take to be Earl Kiser(?) in a (?)racer. Can any of you out there shed some light on the details of what this image of an Oh-Mi-Gawd individually cylindered racer actually IS ? I absolutely treasure this photo .. ! Light years away from the current-day Formula I super-techno crap: ... truly REAL racing !
Would I be right in thinking that the Cooper was the car that was in the UK and was run at Brooklands by a women? It was on the market a few years back and may have found its way back to the US? EARTH to Kurtis...... please check in.........
Does anyone know how well he did? He had a good sponsor, they are still making engine parts to this day.
T-Head, I believe you are thinking of the Derby Miller. Glenda Stewart was the female driver. "Would I be right in thinking that the Cooper was the car that was in the UK and was run at Brooklands by a women? It was on the market a few years back and may have found its way back to the US?" http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ev=/images?q=Derby+Miller&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbs
T-Head, in 1927 Kohlert was driving in relief of Lecklider, and hit the wall . Car was #23 in 1927 In 1928 he finished 13th, in his only Indy 500 start. Car # was 29. Don`t worry,I`m not Donald Davidson or the rainman. I had to look it up-LOL
You may be right Buildy.... I love the propeller! The reason I mentioned the car that ran at Brooklands is I remember seeing a photo of it with a rectangular radiator, not a standard rounded off one. Can anyone come up with an old photo of the car. I could be wrong about Brooklands, but I do remember it going to England.
There's been some great stuff posted lately. A BIG thanks to T-Head for all the wonderful info. Keep it up. I've been busy reading the book about the 1908 NY to Paris race as i continue in my research of Houpt/Herreshoff. Spent about 16-17 hours over three days and found.....nothing.
Michael, I found a little more info in my files about the subject. The Duesenberg's were very successful up until the DOHC Peugeot along with the overhead cam Stutz and Maxwells came out and they needed to develop further than the 8-valve and they had the 16-valve up running and its first appearance was at the Sheepshead Bay for the September 1915 350 mile Astor Cup race. Team drivers O'Donnell and Henderson finished 3th and 5th a very good showing for the new engine. O' Donnell won four major races early in 1916, two at Ascot and two 300 milers at Corona and Fresno with a 16-valve. The new 16-valve straight frame car was supposed to be finished for O' Donnell to run at Indy. They did not get it finished in time and showed up with one of the old 16-valve double drop frame cars for him to run and he stormed off in a huff and quit. Wilber D'Alene stepped in to drive this car, the only one they had in the race. He finished in 2nd place behind Resta in the Peugeot. I do not know exactly when they got the first straight frame car finished but I would guess in the summer or fall of 1916. It was reported that the car was sold to Buzane but that turned out to be incorrect as Jimmy Benidict was the next owner after an update the body work and clutch. Photos one thru three showing full valve spring pressures for the 8 & 16 valve engines in The Automobile, January of 1916, some time after they had been raced along with the pressures of some of their competitors. The second photo which is poor shows the 2nd place car at Indy with the double drop frame. As to the bore and stroke I believe they are both the same 3.75" x 6.75" for 298.2 CI. Best, T-H
Thanks for the info, T-Head, although I am a little disappointed: you see, I thought you could tell an 8-valve from a 16-valve by looking at the frame! Ah well, nothing is ever so easy... You say the 16V ran in a drop-frame chassis in late 1915 and early 1916 - I didn't know that, but it would explain the strong performance of O'Donnell in these races. What I know is that the 8V engine originally had a bore of 3" 63/64 and a stroke of 6" (299.2 CID), but maybe they also built 8V engines with 3.75" * 6.75", I don't know. At Indy in 1916, three cars with the latter dimensions were entered, and the three Crawford Specials (basically, Duesenbergs by another name) also had the same spec, but most sources show d'Alene eventually started with the 299 CID engine, i.e. the 8V dimensions! Whether that's true or not I can't say, but the team was definitely late with their new cars -as usual, one must say! Just one day before the race a new car for O'Donnell (probably a 16V straight frame) appeared at the track, and was qualified in a special session after the regular time trials were already done with. O'Donnell made the grade, but couldn't start because of some mechanical problems, described as a "brake drum failure" - surely, the problem was much bigger than that. This episode, together with Duersenberg's failure to get their car to New York for the championship opener a fortnight earlier, led to O'Donnell's resignation from the team after the next race at Chicago, but interestingly, he then showed up with the "Hoskins Special" at Des Moines, which was another 16V straight frame Duesey in disguise! It was in this car that he had his catastrophic accident at Kansas City, which all but destroyed his career when his broken arm wouldn't heal properly for a couple of years - shades of Troy Ruttman here!
Funny how subsequent posts are sometimes interlinked, and even more so: The "Cooper Special" that was wrecked at Indy in 1927 was actually a Miller - only three of the four "Cooper Specials" were actually Coopers - and this very Miller was rebuilt and later became the Derby-Miller! So, it's not an accident that T-Head confused these cars, as the Derby-Miller was rebuilt by Cooper using the body bucks for the "real" Coopers! The easiest way to tell a Cooper from a Miller is the position of the exhaust: Coopers exhaust to the right, and (front-drive) Millers to the left. As for the Cooper in the Mullin Collection, I can't be sure which one it is, since all three were converted into two-man cars in the thirties and changed appearance substantially. I have a few notes about their post-racing "careers", but need to follow them up. The Kohlert Miller (Elgin Piston Pin Special) was Tommy Milton's second Miller '122', built in early 1924. It was driven by Les Allen, Cliff Woodbury, Fred Lecklider, Bruce Miller, George Young, Shorty Cantlon and a couple of young Californians on their way up, Kelly Petillo and Ernie Triplett! I do not know what happened to it after 1928, but there is a slight chance it was used in races for "colored drivers".
Quote: Michael Ferner Funny how subsequent posts are sometimes interlinked, and even more so: The "Cooper Special" that was wrecked at Indy in 1927 was actually a Miller - only three of the four "Cooper Specials" were actually Coopers - and this very Miller was rebuilt and later became the Derby-Miller! So, it's not an accident that T-Head confused these cars, as the Derby-Miller was rebuilt by Cooper using the body bucks for the "real" Coopers! The easiest way to tell a Cooper from a Miller is the position of the exhaust: Coopers exhaust to the right, and (front-drive) Millers to the left. As for the Cooper in the Mullin Collection, I can't be sure which one it is, since all three were converted into two-man cars in the thirties and changed appearance substantially. I have a few notes about their post-racing "careers", but need to follow them up. I was not confused about the cars at all.... The Miller that was offered for sale in the UK a few years ago was advertised with a photo of the rectangular style radiator, I was just wondering if anyone knew if this was the same car that was in the Mullin collection.
In Model A Keith's post number 2547 of Cecil Cathie doesn't it appear as though he is driving in a jacket and tie?
A "gentleman driver", obviously! At Le Mans in 1939 Rob Walker drove his daytime stints in brown shoes, a lounge suit and tie: when darkness fell he changed into evening dress and black shoes as no gentleman would wear brown shoes with a dinner jacket (tuxedo to you)!
It's just T-Head's cunning way of turning us all into rainmen It's said to be the Peter Kreis #9 but they have a picture of Bennett Hill and call it a Cooper-Miller
Great stuff David. A bunch of great pics and info but especially enjoying the Duesenberg stuff. Keep it up -Jim
Wow, there is more Duesenberg racing stuff here than in all the books put together ! Thanks for keeping this thread going !
Not at all unusual, that. Many, if not most drivers raced like that, i.e. in their street clothes until, say, the mid thirties. Some would put on coveralls, but beneath that they would, of course, still wear a tie!
The Jalopy Journal
