Kurtis I looked thru my notes and came up with Motor Age December 3 1914 page 5+ wherein they say Pullen's winning car was 'once yellow but painted red for today..." Pullen's car was the same which Wishart drove at Indy 1914 and was 2nd at Sioux City on 7/4 and one in which he died...445cubic inch...his speed of 87.8mph is the fastest of any car in competition on a raod course or speedway contest...2 times faster at Brooklands but not in competition..." How much of this is gospel I cannot say but much of the modern day history of Mercer is pitiful. Anyone's guess I suppose-Jim
Jim, You might be right about that one. After Pullen crashed in the Vanderbilt Cup he won three days later in the American Grand Prize at Santa Monica. Could this be the other yellow car that was repainted red as you say?
Kurtis it is pretty easy for me to stick my foot in my mouth on this stuff. I would have to look thru some old photos and some of the old articles to say what is what with the shell game. I believe this photo is of Pullen's car and Wisharts 45s and Wishart's car has no hood scoops. I guess if I had a pic of Pullen's Grand Prize car three days after I would try and see if the scoops are there. Not completely definitive but something to hang my hat on I guess.-Jim
I subscribed to this thread with instant email notification,thanks to the great info and photos you gentlemen are posting! Fur Biscuit-great Pope stuff,the large ones I hadn`t seen before.
Bob, good eye-as to the Ellis car I have seen it before. He has it as the 1913 Indy 2nd place finisher of Spencer Wishart (yellow with the #22). Whether that is in fact the car I do not know. I suppose he is correct in calling it a 1913 as it is a Type 35 as raced during the 13 season.-Jim
Geez this Mercer story just gets deeper and deeper the more i research and it's bloody hard to find stuff related to the race cars. Amazing since this was the first American car to win a major race in the U.S. I think if DePalma and Oldfield were best buddies during the Mercers dominance in that short period these cars would not have been forgotten, but, just like today the reporters of that time concentrated on personalities. Jim, I found the Mercers entered in the '14 Indy race were painted red which explains the car in Buildy's original post and something i have noticed in the B&W photos posted by fur biscuit of the #19 Wishart car. Notice the different shades of color compared to the original Mercer yellow in other photos. In regards to the #22 car posted by Bob, that one has me confused somewhat. Namely the exhaust is on the right side. The second placed Wishart car at the '13 Indy is listed as a Type 45. I have found a mention of a Mercer fitted with a Wisconsin engine but that was fitted to the Gordon Special that was raced at the November '14 Corona race. So what engine is in the #22? It looks similar to the Louis Nikrent car also at the '14 Corona race. Pics here of the Nov. 1914 Corona race. Great photos. www.printroom.com/ViewGallery.asp?shopperid=M&userid=caviews&gallery_id=1322178
Oh gee biscuit, i'm just getting over this Mercer headache and you go and ask a question like that. I'm going to start charging Buildy and yourself for all the asprins. If you can get your hands on Automobile Quarterly Vol 37. No.3 March 1998 there is an article titled 'The mystery of the racing Maxwells'. Apart from that, beats the shit out of me. But i'll keep looking.
Kurtis, as to the red cars you are correct they were red at Indy in 1914(yellow at Indy in 1913). The reference "to painting it red for today" which I posted earlier may have been a colloquialism, as it was once yellow but now it is red. But with the shell game they played with the cars who knows if one stayed yellow until August of 1914. Mercer ran only two Type 45s in 1913 and in 1914 although some early press reports claim they were going to run three each year I believe. If you look in Fox's box you will see he got it right (as well as the colors in 1913 and 1914 regarding Mercer) that in 1913 Wishart's car was one of the 300 cubic inch cars. Fox lists Bragg's car as a 45 with 424 cubic inches but I believe gets DePalma's cubic inch wrong. I believe DePalma had a 424 cubic inch Type 45 but Fox list it as 340. If you look at Motor Age May 29 1913 starting at page 7 it discusses the Mercers and lists Bragg and DePalma with 424.36 cubic inch ((4.8x6.189) and Wishart's car as 299.7 cubic inches (4.370x5.0), There was also some discussion of the differences between the 45s and 35 in that the earlier 35 chain timing gears drive was supplanted by spur gears with skewed teeth in the 45. They went on to say Bragg would run wood wheels and DePalma and Wishart would run Rudge Whitworths (pretty early on American racers). Much was made afterwards of Wishart small Type 35 running so well and finishing second in a field that allowed behemoths. In 1914 Mercer entered 3 cars for Indy Bragg and Wishart to drive 45s (now supposedly 445 cubic inches) and Pullen was to be first replacement with a 300 inch motor designed by the new head engineer Erik Delling reminiscent of the Deltal that Delling built and ran 2nd at the last Elgin races. This was a 298.2 cubic inch (3.75x6.75) with side valves and 8 plugs. Delling was experimenting in high speed motors by lightening con rods and piston assemblies, improving balance and oiling systems (although this turned out to be his failure so to speak in his first set of Overhead cam cars in 1915-in that he could not get the good stuff from France due to the war) . Also the wheelbase was 110 as opposed to 112 with the 45s. (see Motor Age 4/2/14 p28 and 5/28/14 p18). As to Gordon he played around with some cars and engine combinations and I would love to track down all of his cars. As to what he was running in late 1914 I thought he was running the Mercer Monk which the press reported was the same Mercer 300 T head that Hughie Hughes and DePalma drove in 1912 (Motor Age 12/24/14 p11). Interesting if he had a Wisconsin. I have read it but have not found a picture. Come to think of it the history of Wisconsin and their Overhead cam saga with Burman and others is another interesting mystery I have come up with more questions than answers. A bunch of great cars in this era-All good stuff-Jim
I was around when Roger was building(producing) his cars. He built them for the best of reasons. There weren't any and he never ever made any claims on them other than he was making them. He cast crankcases. It was really a out of love of Mercer It was a huge Job! Rodger died near the end of his project. I honestly think it's pretty silly to discuss them racing with early racing photos. Roger's cars were only really finished and raced AFTER HIS DEATH They are a product of the 70-80-90s One man's dream and dedication simply that I saw OH-NO at Herb's with very old paint on it. It was red! Bill Evans Jr is just a jerk. One day offered to restore my chopped 40 from me so his kid could drive it. Then I would "get it back in a few years" When I gave him the response most here would say his next comment was 'Do you think you'll live long enough to drive it?' Asshole Bill ......... Yes I WILL!! Just my .02 Zloty
Bluto, Whats so silly about discussing history. If you know something about the racing Mercers or any other car, please share. Remember, i live on the other side of the world where we don't have the population of Europe and America and information is hard to find in regards to early auto racing.
Hey history is fine but only we don't add to a myth. I am sure the George and David(if he was still alive) would tell you right of that 'Their car was built' but as time goes by OH NO gets green and Rabbit becomes a real Brooklands outside car. That is history too and needs to be known too. It is too easy for stories to become truth as folks die. My point wasn't about history it was about talking about a new car being talked up as surviving or had anything to do with historic photos Do you understand now?
I understand your point now Bluto. I didn't know it was a 'new car', although i did have some suspicions about it. Thanks.
It is funny you keep calling it the "OH NO" there are a few dead guys attached to that car, per some com's with the (late) owner: "The ONO was a pretty scary car. If you look at the steering arm (just behind the left front wheel) and compare it with period pictures, it's about two inches shorter than original. Makes for hair-trigger steering." It apparently had a nasty habit of flipping over and killing drivers. The picture of the car in red w/ the #28 was the last number it used in its professional career.
Thanks for all the info on the "Ellis car" I knew nothing about it, just found that photo bouncing between websites yesterday. Building a car from blueprints vs. a pile of once factory parts are two different things and it is good to know the stories behind the ones that are new creations. Were race car numbers used for the whole year back then or did they get a different number race to race?
Hey Doug It was 30 years ago that I say the car. Bob It was very well know that Roger was building the two cars from scratch. It was a huge effort many helped with info. AND now there is little mention of their creation. Our Miller got more history thru every seller. When I called the builder my first comment was 'We own the Miller that won Monza!!' It's a good collection of old racing parts. They all raced but NEVER together. I look at it as a race car....... something to use and enjoy with far less history that most Go-Karts
This may be the 1914 American GP at Corona. The #4 Mercer of Eddie Pullen leading the #8 Stutz of Earl Cooper and behind him is the Gordon Spl. Mercer with Barney Oldfield in the pits.
Great picture Kurtis but I wonder if it is Corona April 8 1916. The #4 Mercer now owned by George Bentel in 1916 had the script under the seat as in this picture and it appears that is Oldfield in his Delage which I do not believe he entered in any competition before late summer of 1915. The #5 Stutz may be Cooper. Although I do not have the car #s in front of me and would have to dig a little to find them that could be O'Donell in the winning Duesenberg (#14). Of course if this was 1916 Corona, then it was a day of tragedy as Burman lost his life during this contest. Pullen drove this car at Ascot in March and April of 1916 (winning the 100 mile George Washington Sweepstakes on March 5) but my records show Oldfield had his Chritie there to set a record but did not compete with his Delage). Other than the early west coast events though most of the racing in 1916 by Mercers in the big events was restricted to their overhead cam cars (I believe)-Jim
Jim, I don't have any info in regards to the 1916 Corona race, but i trust your judgement. Besides, the #5 sure does resemble a Stutz and not the Gordon Spl. Mercer i listed. Thanks. It sure is helpful having you here. photo of the 1916 race. The script under the seat is clearly visible.
I'd love to see some pictures of that Mercedes! As I understand it, it was very much a "timewarp" car in totally original condition. Such a shame it was converted back to original spec and to have all that history wiped away.
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