bad urethane experience-need info

sheet 8- last page- for catalyst

 

so there you have it- next time any of you fellas want to shoot some urethane, or you newbies want to try your hand at painting and hear how great urethane and 2-part paints are, you can read these MSDS sheets and know beforehand what the risks are. If someone had told ME first, I'd never have used the ****. I had these faxed to me the day after my mask filters gave up and I got dosed and my lungs were burning. My stomach is still cramping and hurting today, 11 days later. Who knows if/when it will ever go away 100% ? I hope it does. This paint has put a severe crimp in my hot rodding hobby, pissed off my wife, and lately made me think I'd be better off junking my old car, than painting it- and ended my painting hobby career. Was it worth it for UV protection and paint holdout ? **** NO ! I'd be better off with straight lacquer or enamel, and let it turn to chalk in 3 years- or garage it and keep the paint nice. hell, I'd be better off painting the ****ing car with a brush or roller, and house latex.

notice the various contradicting respirator recommendations- they say supplied air one place, then charcoal mask another place, quite a few times- so which is it then ? they just want to sell more paint to guys with no supplied air/booth- GREEDY ****ERS !!

one thing is obvious- if they made all this hazard info public knowledge, no hobbyist in his right ****ing mind would spray this **** at home in his driveway or garage.

urethane is SPRAY BOOTH ONLY- WITH SUIT AND SUPPLIED AIR ONLY-

no charcoal masks, no other way- period.

imo, the **** should be outlawed for home use. whoever sells it without the MSDS, should be thrown in ****ing jail- it's like selling crack cocaine to kids and not saying how dangerous it really is- it should not be sold to anyone who does not have a booth, supplied air, and suit

 

Since the subject has been opened . Where is SEMA's , AACA and other like groups responsibility in this issue. They were the key initiators of the efforts for the exemptions in most legislation regarding the sale of these paints to the hobby and nonprofessional market and are the leaders that have been relied on for guideance on issues like this in the.past . As the world changes , what are the roles of these organizations and of forums such as the HAMB, and other internet communication links ? We all need to spend more time in our research and be more responsible for our own destiny. Together we all can make the future better .

 

well said Larry- SEMA is big on protecting a lot of parts/materials and keeping them legal for us to use, and preventing our cars from being legislated off the road

but in this case, they dropped the ball, or turned a blind eye to this issue

this paint is now being dumped onto the internet/mail order market dirt cheap for $80/gallon including catalyst, for another $12 it comes right to your door- right to my door in a residential community in Pa. USA

it has become so cost compe***ive, that it's a "no brainer" for paint holdout- standard enamel is $50/gallon with reducer- urethane is only $92- may as well use the urethane, right ?

until you do the thorough weeks long safety research I've just done, and get the MSDS sheets- then you realize, it's so damned toxic, no wonder they can't sell it easily- they have to hide the safety info to some degree, to expand the market

we're being used as human guinea pigs

that's what got me roped in, the low price in comparison to straight enamel, and increased holdout- but the TOTAL LACK of sufficient health hazard warnings, and/or very understated warnings, had me using the paint outside at my friend's house in the country- without adequate protection, obviously- and his wife and 3 year old were inside in the house 100 feet away, but fortunately unaffected. I did tell her to take the boy inside, he was playing on the swingset outside, before I started painting

Now,why did 3m LIE to me, and tell me a charcoal mask was adequate protection- and give no time limit on the filterrs ? The 3M rep on the phone, actually told me, change them when you smell paint- by then I'd be ****ing DEAD

what if I had sprayed it in my driveway, and it blew downwind into someone's house, who had an infant sleeping in a crib ?

had I known the dangers on the MSDS- BEFOREHAND- and the "real truth" about the charcoal masks being ineffective against ISO's, then I surely would not even fathom spraying it in my residential neighborhood- or anywhere else, for that matter

they would have lost the sale on urethane, and I would have bought synthetic enamel, or used the synthetic enamel I have here already- I have 3 gallons of old Dupont Dulux I could have used, for free

the respirator 3M company and Eastwood paint vendor, and paint mfr. (whoever that is) obviously have done some pret-ty dubious doctoring of the respirator requirements for this stuff- and are hiding/understating the pertinent safety information

the international scientific community has some right out and said carte blanche, charcoal respirators are not effective protection- why does Eastwood and 3M continue with this blatant LIE about the charcoal respirators being "ok"- and this "one hour" statement ? why isn't that ON THE CAN OF PAINT- see their recommendation here on pages 22 and 23 of this pdf do***ent- the course of action recommended, is use a different paint, or use supplied air, but a charcoal mask won't work alone- it's only a supplement- in other words, maybe wear a charcoal mask under a supplied air hood for extra protection- but not charcoal mask alone- I will post do***ents next frame

http://ecb.jrc.it/cl***lab/2201a17_S_isocyanates.pdf


then at least I'd have speculated and bought/used a new pair of filters, for each day- I'd bet in that case, I'd be just fine- I would have over-compensated on the safe side, and spent the extra bucks on 3 pair of filters, instead of only one pair

 

here it is from PDF do***ent, international panel findings- best way to avoid iso dangers- DON'T USE URETHANE AT ALL- use an alternative- which is exactly what "I'm" doing from now on

why isnt' THIS on the MSDS sheet, or 3M respirator sheet ?

because then no one would buy the urethane paint- or use a 3M respirator with urethane- they'd lose millions $$ in sales

yes, SEMA has old us all down the ****ing river on this one, on the safety aspect- all in the name of PROFITS

page 22 of this do***ent http://ecb.jrc.it/cl***lab/2201a17_S_isocyanates.pdf

 

here's the next issue- international community states, charcoal masks are ineffective, only to be used as supplement to a supplied air mask- now why did 3M put my life at risk, and tell me to use ONLY their charcoal mask ?

why did Eastwood's MSDS sheet say I could use charcoal mask for "less than one hour" ??

why isn't this ON THE ****ING PAINT CAN LABEL ??

I'll tell you why, because then no one in their right ****ing mind, would buy/use this paint.

bottom line- if you use urethane or any hardened paint, with a charcoal mask, you are in SERIOUS HEALTH RISK for asthma, bronchitis, cancer, copd, death

page 23 of this do***ent

http://ecb.jrc.it/cl***lab/2201a17_S_isocyanates.pdf

 

Twenty-five years ago I painted a 40 ford using Dupont Centari enamel. I used the catalyst, and had a new Dupont charcoal mask. I had a new explosion proof exhaust fan, the door opened a little to draw in fresh air. When I would stop for a break I was blowing what looked like white plastic out of my nose. The garage had the smell for along time. I’ve sprayed Lacquer with a handkerchief over my nose and it was nowhere as bad as the paint with the catalyst.

 

I would like to clean out my paint cabinet (all PPG) after reading this. Can a save the DP90? I have a gallon of it. The K36 and Uro clear has to go. Looks like its back to Laquer primer and topcoat. I think of it like this....its more traditional anyway!!! Urethane looks to "plastic" on an old car anyway.

 

Right on the label of most of the paints I use have this little disclosure "Not For Sale or Use By The General Public". In my experience, car guys do not consider themselves "general public" even though they are. A paint store will not discriminate, for they are in the business to make money.They know its harmful to your health, but they ***ume you're not naive to this. If you go to a convenience store to buy a pack of smokes you will get the same at***ude, except for getting carded if you look too young. Yet, people sue tobacco companies for getting cancer.

Most major car magazines publish how-to articles once or twice a year on new paint products,and the necessary precautions for safety in using them. I've known about fresh air respirators vs charcoal masks since the early nineties, from reading these articles. Basically ,this is not something new. I'm weird though, I like to be informed about the fine print before I take on something I've no experience with.

As far as getting the paint shipped to your door...nothing illegal or immoral there. If any hazardous chemical is shipped in a small enough quan***y, you need no placards on your transporter. Usually the box will be deemed "ORM-D" which means other related materials-domestic. If its in a small enough quan***y, there is little risk of a haz-mat situation should the carrier get into an accident and spillage might occur.


That ****s you got sick. I've heard plenty of horror stories. All I've ever had was a 3M or Gerson respirator. I watch my painter,my bosses,and other coworkers smoke as much as they breath, and paint **** right out in the shop. I get a tangy taste in my mouth every time they spray variprime ,lately it hasn't gone away. Its almost like sticking your tongue on a 9 volt battery (I was dared as a kid). I probably won't live to see 40 if I don't get out of this business. There's been a long standing inside joke about old painters and body men.....there aren't any.

Paint is paint, its all bad. The old stuff had lead in it. IMRON was the worst. Tough paint,but way bad. They still sell it, but its an improved version. It's used in fleets. I had an old boss who got hospitalized and almost died from it. If he catches a whiff of it, it will put him in the hospital to this day. A cousin of mine got isocyanate poisoning from painting, and can no longer work in a body shop.

 

Here in British Columbia,if you were caught venting "Freon" into the atmosphere,you could spend the rest of your life paying the fines. Heard about "global warming"? Major offender is "Freon" Major issue worldwide. We all need to be more responsible about chemicals these days.

 

Great! I'll take all of it. PM me for my address. Thanks Scrounger!

 

You have said a lot in this thread, so I am going to generalise in reply. Also this is going to sound harsh, but your replies to other peoples posts are seemingly lacking in perspective.

No PPE system is 100% effective. They are all harm minimisation tactics.

You were given conflicting information about what was required before you started the job, and so you chose the lesser alternative????

The various TDS and MSDS do***ents recommended not more than 1 hour with a charcoal filter mask, yet you used it for well over this time on more than one occasion????

You experienced problems, that you ***ociated with the paint you were spraying, but when the symptoms went away you returned to painting????


Why did the mask company "Lie" about being able to use charcoal filters? Because they base their info on statistics. Statisticly, an average person would have been fine. They did not lie about antything. ( No, I don't work for the company in question. )
[BTW, here in Australia, its basicly ileagal to paint 2K without an airline respirator. And ileagal to recommend some one to do so.

No doubt that 2K is danerous ****. Knowledge is power, so spread the word.

 

OK Scrounger....enough whining. With two college degrees and a year in business law under your belt I would have figured you could have properly researched this....I even gave you links, hints and clues as to where to go and find the correct information. You didn't pull it off.....all you seem to be concentrating on is the fact that you believe you've been hoodwinked and these companies are misleading the public in order to sell more gallons of paint. The truth is the hobby customers aren't a pimple on the paint industries *** and they'll cater to those customers first rather that coddle a bunch of folks who's majority should not be using their materials in the first place. I think its more of a misunderstanding and lack of training/knowledge on your part rather than the big guy stepping on the little guy.

So here goes.....


First off, its not just the paint your all that worried about....its the activator and hardener these paints use. THAT is where most of the isocyantes live.

There is nothing misleading in this bright red Isocyanate Safety pamphlet published by your favorite company….3M. This safety sheet is from 2007 and it popped right up inside the 3M website when I searched for "isocyantes".

http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs66Sld7COrrrrQ-

It plainly and clearly states that when spraying isocyanate containing materials you have to use a forced air system. Cutting and welding after the fact suggests that appropriate respirators could be used…..with specific recommendations, of course. It was originally published for the Aussies....but, hey, we have materials here in the USA that are known to cause cancer only in the state of California .......so, that doesn't suprise me. Mis-leading you? Nope....it was right there on the 3M web site.

So, the official word from 3M is "Don't do it!".


Your second most favorite company is Eastwood.....here's an MSDS from 2004 that clearly indicates that you should use, ......you guessed it, a forced/free-air system for spraying this material.

Eastwood Urethane and Epoxy Primer Catalyst MSDS (from 2004)

http://forum.eastwoodco.com/images/manuals/msds/12010zpmsds.pdf

The official word from Eastwood is "Don't do it!".


Want some information from PPG??? Here you go, this one is from 2008.

PPG Omni Hardener MSDS (from 2008)

http://buyat.ppg.com/wercsinter/WercsWV.ASP?A=List&F_Plant=006,809&F_Language=en&F_Product=MH258

The official word from PPG is "Don't do it!".


Want one for DuPont's Imron line of urethane paints? This one is a cl***ic from 1995.

http://hazard.com/msds/f2/ccp/ccpzt.html

The official word from DuPont in 1995 is "Don't do it!".


This is hardly new information. It is and has been right there for the whole world to see. ALL OF WHICH INDICATES THAT FORCED AIR SUPPLY MASKS MUST BE USED when spraying these materials.

NIOSH reg TC-19 is mentioned in many MSDS sheets for materials containing isocyanates. If you go to the NIOSH website you’ll find hundreds of pages of information on isocyantes and about TC-19C. Here’s a few ….

Isocyanate Information

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/isocyanates/

NIOSH Pocket Guide for Methylene Bis-Phenol Isocyanate

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0413.html

You’ll note the recommendation that only a free air system should be used when spraying these materials. Also, you’ll note that in an emergency use/restricted use low concentration only you can use a compatable organic cartridge with a N, R or P -100 cl***ification filter attached. For oil/paint based (cl***ified as solvent/oils) you’ll use the P100 filter.

How did I know that?

Why, its right here…. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/pgintrod.html#nrp

Want more clairification? Those Krazy Kats out in Washington state have it all figured out.
Here is a reference where an organic cartridge/P-100 pre-filter combo is required for spray on bed liners (very similar to paints and typically generate MUCH less overspray and vapor fog/mist) only if you absolutely positively have to fix up Cooters pick-up bed before his big date. Remember thats with plenty of ventilation.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/nas/RDRP/appendices/chapter4/a4-13.pdf

The bottom line that you should have read ALL of the MSDS sheets for ALL of the products you were using. 3M and Eastwood, as do all of the paint manufacturers, recommend not using cartridge type respirators for spraying isocyanate containing materials. The paint MSDS's vary because not all paints contain isocyanates as delivered/used and some companies may ***ume you'll use hardener and they MAY put the warnings in the paint MSDS's as well......however, ALL of the MSDS's for the hardeners/activators that contain isocyanates clearly indicate that fresh air systems and additional PPE must be used when mixing and spraying these materials and until they are cured.

Again, I know how you feel (literally) and I'm sorry you were exposed and sensitized. The damage is done....all you should be doing is now figuring out how to get well soon. A few letters and phone calls to hobby paint suppliers like Eastwood suggesting clearer warnings and that all pertinent information be sent to thier non-professional customers won't hurt either if it'll make you feel better.

Good luck with it.

-Bigchief.

 

Check and mate. Well done. Too bad he's already started another thread preaching that the EPA has finally saved us with waterborne paint. No more stepping on the little man. Seems he's still a little behind, how long ago did waterborne come out?

 

Thanks. I think I'm a little hard on the guy sometimes. He's not feeling well at all and is mad as hell about it. Can't blame him for being pissed.....the problem is that the majority of the cause was a lack of knowledge and some mis-understanding on his part mixed in with come confusion caused by a little conflicting information from 3M (his E-mail).

The hazardous materials rule of thumb is to go with the PPE required for the most hazardous stuff you'll be using and ***ume worst case exposure risks.

Hopefully he begins to recover soon.

-Bigchief.

 

I gitten to the point..(thread number 3 buy this guy) I think he is a *****...

 

OK, you guys have scared the hell out of me.
I had no idea that the urethane based product was so dangerous.

Now that I've started priming my roadster with a urethane primer, can I go right over that primer with a lacquer or enamel based prime or will I need to strip the urethane primer off?

 

An old friend of mine was paintining 2 pack in the shed with no mask on. His what Australians call an 'old ****y' He didn't use a mask because he figured he was to old and he did have one. So this is what he did, he got a line of hose, drill a hole in the shed for the hose to go out side. What he would do is take a deep breath of air on as the hose the was going outsie the shed, and hold his breath while he painted. I few guys where outside the shed having a few beers shaking their heads at him until one of the guys desided to piss in the hose. You can guess that the guy painting came out of the shed and ***** a mask next time.

 

My dad owned a restoration shop for 38+ years. He was the only one there and only did a few big jobs a year, and filled in with some quickie collision work. He retired from the shop to work on his cars and not 2 years after retiring, he developed COPD. He used a cartridge mask to paint. Mainly he shot Dupont Centauri with hardner or Acrylic Laquer.

I purchased a turbine air system for my work... I can't stand to see how much this **** affected him. I love cars but damn... I'm not willing to die for them.

 

one of my friends worked for national kenworth years ago redoing the traded in trucks , i ran this by him and he said oh yup you need to wear proper mask to paint with we used r mask even when we were mixing the stuff , he told me a story about one of the salesman who used to sell the paint dying the guy would do a demonstration spray to sell it no mask then on to the next shop it caught up to him

 

Amazing

 

i use acrylic laquer for the body, ive been of my face from thinners but no bad after effects except for a sore back from buffing, i find with 2 k i end up buffing anyway, buffing the acrylic isnt so bad when its your own car and with a good slice down you get a nice flat gl***y peel free finish.
if you are in a shed dont smoke or use a heater, even flood lights are bad, even the compressor in the same room is a fire risk but one day i was painting 2k, outside and we had a fire, my wife left the oil from the chips going on the stove, we had some damage to our kitchen and my wife got 2 skin grafts, i myself cought on fire but only had a few blisters, nothing major, she is still wearing a pressure glove 7 months later, i had to rush to hospital and didnt get the next 2 coats down, now i have some thin slightly transparent areas on the sides of my doors, while we were at hospital the paint set up in the gun, my favourite lucky 2k colour gun, i put the fire on the floor out with my feet after first falling in it, i then grapped the pan of buring oil carefully keeping it levels with flames still on the handle and ran out the front door, i went to chuck it on the concrete but then i realized i had cups of gun wash thinners sitting there so i had to go out to the front yard with it so always be careful of fire when you are painting or cooking or if both is happening at once at your house.

 

i agree with pimpin paint izo siantates are getten to you even if you clean your skin with thinner it will be in your blood with in 10 mins ..so thats what the paint reps tell me ..

ive got head aches from urathane primer before ..

and i had a old boy who was a friend die from shooting emron with no mask on ....

stay away from the paint ..

 

If you think the paint did it, don't paint anymore.. Don't want to bore you with my own problem but just to make a parallel? My doctor said heavy lifting caused my hernia, but after my suergeury he says I can lift. WTF??

 

NO PAINT is made from human bodies, not acrylic laquer, urethane, enamels, not even water born paints. Paint or any chemical mixed into them does not belong in a human body....PERIOD!

THIS IS JUST STUPID!!!

 

Interesting thread. Some knew all this and some didn't and are surprised. So the guys with fresh air systems, what or who's brand are you using? Anyone built their own, or would that be a different thread?

 

hell my paint and body guy even told me.."dont even sand on this **** without proper respitory protective equipment"..the dust isnt something you want to **** in either..
but than again this is normal thinking..right?...
i know i wouldnt

 

Depends on type of referigant. There may be no federal reg. for private release of R134A into the atmosphere. But if it's R12 ther is a Federal Law that prohibits intentional release into the atmosphere. The fine 25 years ago was $25,000.00 per release. And I know wrecking yards do it, but you might want to keep it to yourself. Just a little advice. Big Brother is Watching some of the time.

 

i WOULD HAVE A **** LOAD OF WORK UP DONE BY YOUR dOCTOR TO RULE OUT OTHER ****, iT COULD BE SOMETHING ELSE.

 

i painted my 37 back in 1992 with Dupont Cromabase . As per instructions i had a good spray booth and borrowed a forced air breathing helmut and a new paint suit. i had the gloves and white boot all taped at wrists and ankles also at my neck. After the final coat of paint i took off the head gear and noticed some color around my nose. Couple days later i walked p*** the spray booth that was in use and i started to have heavy feeling in my chest and started to wheez with each breath. The doctor said i am sensitized to iso cyandes and urethane paints. That was 18 years ago and i still can't be around someone spaying these paints. So be very very careful when suiting up to spray. Keep your air supply compressor a safe distance from spray booth.