I think before commenting certain people should watch David Gardiners skills on youtube, available to watch for free, before buying said Dvd. He has gone right back to the basics rather than telling you to buy expensive machinery. I've known David for about 13 years & own a car which had the body built by him over 25 years ago. He's a bloody good bloke who'd help anyone out, & has done so in the past. I know the amount of time & effort that he put into the Dvd as well as managing to put food on the table. I bought one - money well spent in my book. Even though the "magic wand" comment didn't sound "tongue in cheek" I'll guarantee it was as David isn't the kind of person to be negative about anyones work. Lets lighten this up with a bit of humour I just wish he'd send me his magic wand cos I broke mine at work...... So when's number 2 Dvd coming out, more to the point, maybe Hollwood should get involved with Brad Pitt playing David & Russell Crowe playing James, Davids trusty sidekick
Good to know information in this thread. Thanks for posting. I am almost inclined to try it. Didn't need all that drama in between though.
I too took the January course--I'm no kid at 63 years young but wish I had access to a course like Sunchasers long ago !--have built cars since I was 15 and learned more in 3 days in California----I was skeptible about how much could be taught in 3 days but it was truly amazing--our women were invited to sit in day 1 for lite hammer and dolley work which they also were amazed at the results which I attribute back to the way Ken teaches--I flew from Canada and as far as expense---who cares--was my money and I thought it was worth every penny--I had the videos already and now use them for refresher courses for myself--H Rod 50 did a great job on his skirts--I watched--none of us were experts but we have a lot more knowledge now--Kens motto is you don't leave till you can do it--not like lots of other courses I have taken which were --this is how to do it now go home and practice--there are lots of teachers out there and none should be bashed for doing it there way but us who have been to Sunchasers will stand behind this method cause it worked for usand will recommend it 100%
When I first looked at this thread there were a lot of photos of work being done using the shrinking disc and lots of praise for the course which is great but to me at least it seemed as though the impression was being given that all you needed to do was buy a shrinking disc and you would be able to rub out dents. That is the reason that I said it was not a magic wand. I was not being flippant or rude but it was late and I probably should have waited till I had more time to post so I could have elaborated more. I am sorry this upset some people. Johnny Arial explained it in the way I should have done as did John Kelly and thanks for your support guys. Both of these guys know their stuff, look at their posts and see some of the incredible things they have made. I think it is out of order to insult John he is a great craftsman and has contributed a lot to this and many other sites. It is a shame that this should happen. I probably left myself open to criticism but John posted good information. I would just say that I have had my disagreements over metalshaping with both John and Johnny but it has never got personal. (Nor should it) Thanks to Bob for your comments in my support but I am all out of wands so you will have to find another supplier. Thanks to all the other guys too. David
No problem MR. Mindover. I should have posted more hammer and dolly photos. Here is my 10 year old son learning basic hammer and dolly use from Ken. The kid actually did a good job after a about 10 minutes of instruction on how to hold the hammer and dolly and how to hit the metal.
Hansom son you have there. You need to protect his hearing when hammering. Both my daughters loved my wheeling machines when they were small. They would always shape some metal (into scrap) when they came to the workshop. The oldest is 18 now and not so interested anymore. David
Some unneeded drama in this thread. The important point is that there are sources of information should a person want to hone their metalworking skills. I contacted Sakamoto over ten years ago to buy his disc and videos. It opened up the possibilities for me. Great stuff.
Glad to see the thread cool off. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, and say that I just purchased a dvd from mindover and I took the sunchaser class. What are you guy's going to do with me? Anyhow you are all great craftsmen and had I lived in another region I might have been calling somebody else up to get hands on training but I live 100 miles from sunchaser. I had stumbled across the you tube videos before taking the class and have to say that I am a hands on learner. After taking the hands on class I am way more confident to start tackling some repairs and when I feel accomplished at that I am going to enroll into one of lazzes classes because I feel that I will be able to learn better in a hands on fashion. I am not going to be close minded and say that the training I had is the "only way" to do things (hence purchasing the dvd from mindover) but the class was exceptional and I will be able to advance faster from that experience. Later yall
Its really shining. And, it is awesome. I think it is good to have that. Can you send me a bunch of photos with these one? I am interested with it.
Mike, thanks so much for taking the time to post your positve experience. The photo of your son getting instructions and doing is priceless. As far as the rest of the crap in this thread, it's pretty sad when someone's thread turns nasty when all the original poster was trying to do was share his experience.
Hello. I just joined this site because of this thread. I JUST spoke to KEN SAKAMOTO yesterday, February 10, 2011 and he told me the class was 32 hours (that is 4 days NOT 5... I made sure I got it clear)... long and costs $6400. Now, I do pretty well... But Harvard isn't even that expensive. THAT IS $200 an hour for a class where you don't even get one-on-one attention. I'm pretty serious about taking a class,,, I'm a NEWBIE ... but... I mean... JESUS, that is really expensive. Ken sounds like he knows his stuff, but in reality kids... THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. What do you guys think of that price?? $6400 PLUS airfare PLUS hotel PLUS food. He told me they don't supply food. I don't think I'm going to do it. Does anyone know of a similar school? And where I can buy a SHRINKING DISK TODAY? Not email someone who may or may not email me back... I can't believe this isn't sold on some website. Please help. THank you nasd90 FLORIDA
i just typed in "shrinking disc" in "google images" and voila, zillions of pictures of different types, with their websites.
Wray Schellin on the hamb. His course is $330 per day and it's a 12 hour day and he supplies food I believe...
Hey nasd90, no one has mentioned on this thread you need a heavy duty grinder that will produce 4500 to 5000K rpm to properly use the shrinking disk. I have a B&D sidewinder. Scott Knight (Scotts Hammer Works) originated the shrinking disk quite a few years ago, it was $35 and he provided a 4 hour class on its use. Boy, have things changed!(If I can find the pamplet I got with it I will scan and post) I think he's retired now. I have gone through about 4 of these disks. If I need to replace the one I have I would buy the flat one or make one. I am by no means an expert on this subject but what the metalshaping guru's said is true, this is just part of the equation, getting the metal back into shape is the big part. Go to the metalshaping sites, you may find a metal meet closer to home that will help with learning metal bumping without taking out a second mortgage. Gordon
hey, I don't know of anyone who teaches a ''hands on'' class in metalfinishing, but Ron Covell and some of the other pros tour the country yearly doing demos of their methods. The various metalshaping sites like metalshapers.org & allmetalshaping have regonial get-togethers at times, and that's a good source of experience/exposure to metalworking. You Tube too, has some information, but most of that is product promotion, not skill development. A good understanding of the basics of auto body & fender repair with a basic skill level of welding sheetmetal will go a long way towards learning metalfinishing, as oppose to ''puttyflinging'' which is what is to pass for metalwork in alot of circles today. Good luck, " The icecream truck in his neighborhood plays Helter-Skelter "
I truly appreciate all the responses men. Thank you. But... Does anyone think that spending $6400 on a 3day class that is NOT one-on-one a wee bit too much? I am not poor, but not rich. I just think that's 'nutz'... koo-koo for cocoa-puffs nuts. I know PhD's who don't make that kind of money. The more and more I read on the internet, I think Ken is living in a dream world and smokin' too much of that wacky-tobaccy in Pasadena. Trying to rip off the civilian so he can redo his house. Nice guy, I would actually get along with him but that's ridiculous. Folks? Anyone? ..........
Hey, I can't begin to guess what prompted Ken to raise the price of his class to the current level, perhaps this is his "jump the shark'' moment in the business? I did find as an example, although not a metalfinishing class, but a metalshaping/forming, welding, and metalworking class/es taught by Kent White TM Technologies @ his shop in Nevada City California, @ $375.00 per day, for a four day class. Price includes breakfast, lunch & study materials, supplies. Taking a ''hands on''workshop is a great way to shorten the time it takes to master a skill, but in and of itself, won't make you a "master". " Meanwhyle, back onboard The Tainted Pork "
You really want to know? First, he's greedy. He wants to no longer instruct the 'Hobbyist' as he calls people like me. He threw a couple insults around but I just listened and absorbed. I worked for a Fortune 100 company as the head of something or other so I can sniff it out easily. He wants to market to bodyshops and he thinks he's going to get $6400-$8k out of them. He slipped out the $8k, not me. He was insulting to the point of saying that I need to book now, and that no professional wants to be in a class with someone that knows nothing. You see, he's right. But it's the tone & setting of his voice, and the greed of course that made the choice for me... That tells me he will never achieve what he 'thinks' he will achieve. He nickels & dimes his website programming instead of doing it right. We had a lengthy conversation, as that is one of the many things I used to do. He sucked every little bit of information out of me like a sixty year old sponge. What do I care? It kept him on the phone longer and I could see the GREED in him. He cares nothing about the hobbyist. Here's a good example of the juvenile con-man in him... He plugged how bodyshops can get $95 an hour. For some reason that number was big with him. Then he would plug his expertise and mildly throw out it being worth double. That's the key. It's a simple con. He wants to make money quick. I mean, can you imagine 5 people paying ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS AN HOUR TOTAL and sit in a class and listen to this guy? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME? What a joke. Second, he hasn't done a full car in 20 years and has no passion for CARS AT ALL. Just wants to make money. I mean, if I got into the car business in this respect and did it day in and day out... Would you just want to repair fenders and show people how to repair fenders? Are you freakin' kidding me? He has no interest in CARS themselves. Nothing maybe he has his heart on. Dull in that respect. And lastly, he is trying to redo his fathers old house where he dumped upwards of $100k. So, he needs cash but he's a cheap SOB. Bravo, I redo homes all the time as I have rental properties and what not. So... he has upgrades in mind. I thought he was a nice guy when I got off the phone, but the more & more I think about it... I WILL NEVER GO TO THAT CLASS. So... pimpinpaint... Thank you for the information, I think I'm going to try Wray Schelin's Sheet Metal Shaping Class in another couple months. I'm from the Northeast originally and can kill a couple birds with this trip... But that class sounds cool too for others. Thank you Sir. Later- nasd90
Hey, Good luck with your metalwork quest for skill and knowledge, Wray is quite a master metalshaper and producer of vintage Jaguar sheetmetal parts. As for a body shop being able to "get $95.00 an hour" good fucking luck! The collision/body shop business is and always has been controlled by the insurance industry. It's that industry that determins what it will pay out in claims to the body shops, Not the other way round. Yeah, there are street rod and restoration shops that write repair sheets @ $150+ a labor hour, here in Southern California for fab and metalwork, but the volume of that work vs. collision work @ $35-$55.00 an hour is an apples to oranges comparasion. The ''metalwork'' being done in body shops and most hot rod shops today is remove and replacement and filler work, and almost no metalfinishing. The skills of metalshaping and metalfinishing being taught in these types of classes are an all but dead craft. Up until fifteen- twenty years ago, no one was teaching these. Today they're enjoying a rebirth. Again, best of luck with your metalwork. '' All great truths begin as blasphemies "
Ok I had some input into Kens $95 per hr quote. I phoned Ken last fall looking to get a price and dates for his classes because I had heard how great they were from people that had attended them. He got very insulting over our 45 minute conversation and was constantly boosting himself and his skills in teaching. He kept trying to get out of me how much I thought a course like his, that guarantees you will be an expert in 3 days, was worth. I told him that I used to teach my own adult education classes in auto repair and maintainance, but I wasn't about to divulge what I charged. He asked if all my students were experts when they left. I told him that he can't realistically expect everyone to have the same skill level and or same learning abilities. And it went on and on like that for quite a while. I did tell him that at $900 per head for a class of 5 people for 4 or 5 days he was making $4500 a week which is damn good money. He finally asked me what I do for a living and what my rate was. I have an auto repair shop and I charge $95 per hour (which is low average around here). I guess he thought I said or meant "auto body". Well he freaked out and started dissin me and told me also that I was just a hobbiest and that he wasn't interested in teaching anybody who could obviously afford to pay someone to do their work for them. He then ranted about how he had TWO guys from Oregon that were willing to pay him $5000.00 each for a 3 day class. Out of my budget I said and hung up. Undoubtedly a very talented man at metalwork, but not at people skills or business. I wish him good luck in his future ventures, both personal and business. Hopefully he can work out some of his personal issues first... Hey nasd I'm going to take Wray's course in a whille too, maybe I'll see you there
Wray's class is a good one to go to, as are several others out there. You could look up Metalmeet.com, allmetalshaping.com, and allshops.org, and find out just about anything you wanted for metalshaping. Also there are many regional get together s for metal shapers all around the world, you can find out about them on the listed sites. One of the biggest Metalmeet's is in Oblong Il, in October each year. $100 entry fee for up to 10 day's of metalshaping!
Thats an outrageous price for a course !! If i`m not mistaken he`s not even teaching metalshaping, just dent repair. I can personally vouch for Wray`s teaching, most of my early metalshaping knowledge came from Wray. Ken teaches how to fix a dent in a fender, Wray teaches how to make the fender from scratch. seems like a no-brainer to me. Gary
I just had to get involved with message board with this one. Long time reader here on the HAMB, this site rocks! I've made the mistake of calling sunchaser. And until now I was thinking that I was only one being verbally insulted by this guy over the phone. I see Ken Sakamoto sunchaser is just an a-hole to most anybody. Me and three of my rod building buds were going to head to cal to take his weekend class while I was on a business trip to southern cal this year. When I first talked with Ken about the price of the class he didn't even have an answer for me, saying it might be $5000 but he wasn't sure. Well that was the first phone call. How did he expect to sell something if he didn't even have a price for a customer to pay. So that was the first big ? mark. My second call attempt to get info was just as bad. I had already been told price of $865 for 3 days, that someone I met paid. I mentioned this to him and on of the next smart ass comments that came over phone was "you snooze you lose". Big words for a little man over a phone wire. The conversation from there was just as lame, being that he just went off. Saying how he doesn't want to waste his time teaching just a hobbyist. Raising his voice about how much he is worth per hour, where I moved the phone away, yeah one of those. Then he railed off insults directed at other great metal guys that I know, Ron Covell and Gene Winfield. Upon this stupidity I hung up. This japanese guy has some serious issues. Glad I found out before wasting my time and money with him. Not thanks sunchaser, you won't be getting any of our business for tools or any class that is for sure. We are looking into Wray's class schedule, thanks guys for making the recommendations. Might see ya there. Fred
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