I have my 53 stripped down to bare steel. I need to do some body filler work. Can I put body filler on bare steel or do I have to apply primer first ? Jase
dp is an epoxy not an etching primer ......also depending what paint manufacturer you use . you need to go by their recomendations .... it is best to seal the metal first as it will begin to rust very quickly. but i always do body work over bare metal .... and never etch over filler EVER ! ....also make sure the metal is CLEAN .....
Oooops, looks like my fingers got ahead of my brain......however, I've been told by qualified body men to never put bondo on bare metal...but what do I know, my paint jobs are at least twenty years old and they still look good! R-
i always thought the dp's were etching primers also but whatever. like they said dp first then scuff with scotchbright pad, add filler ,filler prime, then seal with dp again mixed as sealer ,then paint.omni makes a good epoxy primer also its cheaper may check into that.
yeah its just who you talk to .... some say one way ,some say the other ... more than one way to skin a cat .....funny thing i was taught both ways .. but like i said the metal needs to be super clean . that goes with either way ...... the car i did my first body work on in high school back in 83 still looks great as well .... and that was when i was taught to do it on bare metal ...
wipe down the area with a metal conditioner. Make sure the area is clean and lay your filler over the corrected metal. Make sure you use good body filler a light weight compound not bondo brand. Use an etching primer over the metal BUT not on the body filler. Sand down your filler with 40 to cut it to level until the edges feather back than 80 until it turns kind of ghost like or transparent. If you have any deep scratches sand alittle with 120. Then lay on your sandable primer, then once the whole car is to the point of needing primered do your wet sanding of the primer with a block to sand out the low spots. I wish i had my 53 that close! good luck.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62377&highlight=sealer Then check this out. overspray
I always use Rage Gold...best stuff ever... I'm currently tearing down the body work on a '55 Cadillac, one portion of the rear quarter had been "pulled" with a body slide...drill holes in the body, pull the affected area out, slather on the bondo (and I do mean bondo...it's pink and hard as concrete) smooth it best it can be and paint it! The holes were left under the bondo, the metal under the bondo got very rusty and the bondo was separating from the quarter...I can see that this was done many years ago as I haven't seen pink Bondo in years...and to actually get paint to stick to it was amazing. 'Course then again, it was lacquer paint. I'd bet this was a rush job, a job at a shady dealer to sell the car or someone that didn't know what they were doing... It will be corrected, the right way! R-
Roger, Rage is great stuff. The technology has improved immensely since the days of "Black Knight", DX999, and a host of others that had the sanding consistency of Interstate 80. The color of Filler depends on the filler-most are gray, some green-and the color of the pigments added to the hardner which have no effect other than aid in the visual aspect of mixing it thouroughly. Pink filler comes of red pigmented hardner. I just got done mixing a batch with blue hardner (applied over sandblasted, clean bare steel.) The catalyst is the same - Methyl ethyl keytone (MEK) peroxide, same for fiberglass (polyester) resin which is the base of body fillers. They add "Talc" or basically baby powder to it plus other filler materials. Baby powder is used to absorb moisture to keep the little one's butt dry. If you have holes in the panel under the filler it absorbs moisture and rusts underneath. The drilling holes and filling over them was and probably still is a widely used technique for damage repair. It's not the best for long term jobs, but to a guy working on commision in a collision shop it saves time which is money. (Every job is a rush job.) Filling over holes is thought, by some, to give the filler a "rivet" effect to hold to the metal. This, of course, is a misconception because of the moisture contamination that occurs through the holes. Oh, I just tried to order your book and had a little trouble on the site (probably my Fault). PM me to make sure I got it done. (4951 52nd ST SE Bismarck, ND) thanks, overspray
Jase, Both ways are correct; you have to make sure the metal is clean & I prefer to grind it with 24 grit discs, especially if you're not priming it with epoxy first. If you do prime it first (my preferred method) use only epoxy primer - no other primer under bondo. I like to do it this way 'cause the bondo sticks better & feathers better over the epoxy. I always re-prime over the bondo with epoxy before going to the high-build primer, as you always have some bare metal spots around the bondo. Plus the high-build sticks better to the epoxy too. HTH, ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver" Easy on the Giggle Cream!
thanks guys. appreciate the advice. looks like epoxy primer first then filler. i've used that "rage" brand filler it's pretty good stuff. feathers nicely. thanks for the help. jase
not to hijack, but anyone tried that "all metal" filler? interested to see how the stuff works,if its close to the workability of regular bondo. and how it stands up to temperature extreems... like getting frozen? who wants a nicely blocked panel that is going to have nasty little "plastic cracks" all over it
All metal is a filler made with aluminum powder as the filler material. Less chance of absorbing moisture but sands hard. Also Aluminum expands and contracts at a greater rate than steel in termperarure extremes, so that can be a problem over regular body filler. Aluminum also transfers heat and cold faster. The catalyst/hardner produces heat to harden the resin. Too much hardner in warm conditions can crystalize the resin and make it more brittle and break down causing a bad repair. Too little hardner in cold conditions will not let the resin completely cure and will cause problems later. Small areas and thin coats with careful attention to the temp of the air and metal will produce a good repair. I have used this as a foundation layer over the metal/weld seams and followed with body filler on top. It's not quite as flexible as the newer fillers (like rage) and may not be the best for some repair areas. It is a specialty filler and takes practise to be proficient. There are some aluminum based resin fillers that can be drilled and tapped but not with the same strength capability as the base metal. overspray
I was never clear on this: When putting filler over dp90 or dp40, is a light scuff on the area all that is required for best adhesion, or do you have to cut it pretty well with say 120 or so? Also i'll never fool with an "All-metal or alumilead" filler again, after having to sand every shred off my 37, started lifting after about a year, and hard to sand, can't stand the odor of it when sanding either...
Bodymen i know always taught me to apply the filler over the DP within 48 hours or while you can still smell the vapor outgassing from it. If later then scuff it as you say. I've always had good results with this method
The above may confuse somebody, so I'm gonna say something about it... "MEK" is short for Methyl Ethyl Ketone, a volatile solvent. Methyl Ethl Ketone Peroxide is a different chemical used for a catylist is represented by the letters "MEKP" They are NOT the SAME THING! MEK is as different from MEKP as H2O (water) is from H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) Also, If you get MEKP in your eyes you have 10 seconds to wash it all out or you WILL go BLIND! Wear goggles when using it, and dont ever "horseplay" with the stuff! Also, body filler was around and used for decades before anyone ever heard of or used "etching primer" or Epoxy primers. I think you should just put the body filler over clean, abraded bare steel, and then prime and paint it before it has a chance to absorb any moisture and rust. Which means keep it indoors till it's got some water proof finish on it, or be prepared to just strip it off and start over, and over, and.... And I use "Bondo" brand filler on "traditional body work" just because it is "traditional" It's not the same product it was in the 50's, it's better. Also, My paint supplier says virtually all the filler brands (with the same ingredients*) come out of the same mixing pot and just get different labels anyway. *some have "lightweight" fillers like micro-balloons instead of the talc rock, so they are different, I don't like the idea of micro-ballons because they are essentially trapped air, and sanding the surface of them must make a micro-pinholed surface. Don't ya think?
Good point on the MEKP/MEK. That MEKP is stout shtuff. I think your logic on bondo is a bit off, though. Just 'cause it was used in the past (& over bare metal only) & is therefore "traditional", dosen't mean you shouldn't use newer technology to acheive a better/longer lasting job. Try using it over epoxy primer & see how you like the results. Also; I don't think the "micro-ballons", or "micro-spheres" as some is called, are actually air-filled bubbles. Just different filler than talc - & much better IMO. They claim you can apply paint (& maybe filler?) up to a week without sanding the epoxy primer. However, after two days I like to scuff it with 180 dry to help with the adhesion of the bondo (& I water sand with 400 or 500 before painting over epoxy after three or four days). A lot of it depends on the temerature, etc. HTH, ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver" There is no problem that cannot be solved with the *right application* of high explosives.
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