Featured Technical Boiling over,,,,,,, trouble shooting

I thought I'd learned years ago that engine rotation was determined from the flywheel end of the engine. Maybe from an instructor. Maybe from a service manual. Or possibly from a textbook. But I also understand that this isn't a universally accepted standard. Except that the SAE seems to have accepted it as one of their standards.

The relevant standard is SAE J824 (latest revision J824_202206, reaffirmed June 29, 2022), ***led Engine Rotation and Cylinder Numbering.

It defines that standard engine crankshaft rotation is counterclockwise (CCW) as viewed from the flywheel/output end of the engine. Clockwise rotation is termed "opposite" or "reverse" rotation. The standard also prescribes a consistent cylinder numbering scheme. It was developed to eliminate inconsistencies in how the industry describes rotation direction and cylinder numbering for new engine designs.

It's not really an issue as long as someone defines where they determined the rotation. And everyone else remembers that CW from the front means CCW from the rear.

 

Don't know if this is your problem, but it's something I ran into on a car with a water pump riser. My buddy's 34 with a 400 small block had a weird heating problem. After the engine warmed up and driving down the road, it would suddenly go to 230 - 240 degrees for a few seconds and then come back down to 180 or so. It also had a "water hammer" sound from time to time when the temp would go up. After bleeding the system numerous times, a bunch of thermostat changes and all kinds of testing, what he finally did was plumb water lines from the rear of the intake where the head p***ages are to a raised thermostat housing. That solved the problem and he has probably put 20K miles on the car since then.

 

OK, I can’t argue with such an esteemed organization as the SAE but to me when I tune up my engines I’m never standing at the rear, I’m working at the front or side and I always see the engine spinning CW.
But enough of the thread hi-jack, I’m hoping that @Annette Chaplin can get his overheating issue sorted out.

 

I always looked at the front of the engine to determine rotation. At one time I did a lot of training for Caterpillar. Cat always looks at the flywheel end of the engine to determine rotation. That's important because Cat builds a lot of marine engines (or at least they did when I was working with them).

 

yes, the flow-kooler pump will fit.
All I use. Not because they are the most expensive, but because it’s getting harder and harder to find a gm 6 cyl pump with the proper impeller design. We used to be able to get a disc kit to rivet a flat disc on the impeller to improve efficiency, but they went the way of the dodo bird.

the fan you have is a great fan., but it is on backwards as the blade flares should be forward. Again to improve efficiency. If they touch the fins when on the proper direction…trim em to get proper spacing.

you also asked about the thermostat. Use the 160 as recommended. I’ve tried the 180 and it was ok, but when I switched to the 160, temps went down 10-20 degrees. Funny thing is that my engines run at a 185-195 with the 160 therm and 205-210 with the 180. Not a scientist, just experience talking.

you also asked about your plumbing, and the one thing I can’t really tell from the pics I’ve seen is what type of shut off valve you are using. Is it a straight shut-off (so eliminating the actual function of the byp***) or is it a redirect valve?
I use these so I still get byp*** function.
You can get them with cable or vacuum operation.



these water pump risers work great and all your issues should be manageable and not too difficult to resolve. If I see anything else, I’ll chirp again.

cheers,
RMW

 

After re-re-reading that SAE standard that I posted I'm pretty sure I've misinterpreted its meaning. It's not to determine where the rotation is noted, but rather that the rotation direction of a SBC and most other engines is considered to be the standard rotation. Regardless of from where it is viewed.

That's it, and I'm done beating this dead horse.

 

Thank you very much! Very well articulated and informal.

Heater shut off valve is the simple cable operated one plumed inline with the hose comming from the intake manifold. The heater motor fan speed, 3 speeds, controll switch is incorporated in the push-pull shut off "knob". The "archived" 4 pages post on by p*** and hearter house routing with the Zipps riser, had me very confused. Some postes were contridicting each other, plus with-out pictures, I had a hard time trying to "picture" what they were talking about. That is why I refered to it (questioned) on page 1 of this post.

Every coolant overhaul-replace-build I have done since the '60's, I have had NO problems with. Fill and go, or fill, top off then go. NO actual "bleeding". I din't even know what the bleeding process was. Never needed it. Now I have always drilled a 1/16-1/8" hole in the thermostat plate. (recommened by a old mechanic) Maybe "that" was all the "bleeding" I needed and didn't know it.

I "found" a very small (6-32?) step machined, machine screw in the top of thr riser. It was blended in smooth with the contour of the housing, very hard to see. Only thing visible was the straight screwdriver slot. In a PM I was instructed on how to use that bleeder. Hopefully "that" and the backwards fan is what was causing a 4 min boil over. There is "something" totally blocked casuing this boil problem. And I do not know what it is, and can't figgure it out. I even power washed the motor ***embly coolant p***ages and holes, including the two bottom block drains, to make sure there was no "hidden" crud.

There was talk of CCW and CW pump fan rotation. I knew that marine application, ex; a car motor in a boat, had opposite rotation, to bring lake-river water through the motor and have it exit through the exhaust to keep the motor cool. What the process actuall was, I never learned. But the visible differences between marine coolant parts and street coolant parts was astromical. Even a blind person could tell the differences. What confused me (because I had no way of finding out for sure) was the statement on here that some of those parts could be interchanged! Really? I didn't know they could be interchangable with each other! Suggestion, that the W-pump I already had in the riser and the fan were for marine counter rotation!

The reason for the 160 vs 180 T-stat question was oil sludge ac***lication. This 283 still has the road draft tube and "filter"? ***embly in the "valley". I had to "trim" (grind-file) section of aluminum intake to clear the draft tube "filter housing". That cooling-heating of the motor with "open" crankcase venting was what caused the sludge problem and the oily black streaks in the old hi-way pictures before mandated PCV. I really don't have a place for a PCV valve, and was wondering if I would have excess blow-by (to constantly clean up) with a 160 T-stat. What is your opnion on that? Thanks again.

 

Can you include a picture of what you are trying to describe to me please? Thanks

 

Nothing wrong with an engine temp of 210* your daily driver most likely runs at that temp all day long. I’d bleed the system and put the fan on correctly and see what the results are before I’d put a different ‘stat in and also the crankcase will be cleaner as you suggested.

Here’s the modification mentioned by @jaracer , on your manifold you may have to remove it and drill and tap it for the rear fittings. AN fittings and braided hoses aren’t necessary, it can be done with cheaper fittings and heater hose but if your system is bled I think it will be fine without adding those hoses.

 

Road draft tubes and blow-by are not really a related problem to coolant temps. A higher coolant temp should keep the oil cleaner by burning off the water vapor. Thats why a 180 thermostat or higher is recommended, to keep the engine cleaner. Engines also run more efficient at higher temps.

You engine will run at the temperature the radiator can cool it too, thats where it's going to run no matter what thermostat you put in it. If the cooling system is super efficient, then a thermostat will regulate the temp at the rated temp, just like it would during winter driving. Most cooling systems are not that efficient, so engines tend to run over the rated temps during the summer months. My 250 runs 40* higher than the rated 160* thermostat temp with A/C on, it's getting the 180* T-stat put back in before winter. The cooler rating only delays the warm up a few minutes in the summer, in the winter it causes more harm than good by not burning out the crude in the oil and tail pipe.

 

Replace the ****py little machine screw “bleed screw” with a proper one.
I use these as I get two to a box (cause I do the zips thing when using a sbc).

 

What is the actual thread since that unit is a replacement for late model GM’s. Metric or US? The net is giving out both as an answer.

 

I want to say it was 1/8 npt, but my memory may be a little stale.

***edit: just did a search and a bunch of Randy’s old posts popped up. dang. lost a good one there. But he did post 1/8 npt as well, along with a ton of great info on these zips units.
.

 

Maybe I missed it, but you have to bleed the head. This bleeder resolved heating problems for me.
Warren

 

What engine are you showing us?

 

UPDATE!! I THINK I found the "blockage", or what is causing this motor to overheat so quickly!

Ok bear with me here. I'll get grandson to take pictures here tonight or tomorrow. I can explain AND understand descriptions better with pictures than what I can verbaly.

Now after hours and hours upon hours of reading and re-reading soloutions, causes, mistakes (You tube, facebook, specail forums, anything I could find SBC cooling problems and soloutions) trying to understand what my be causing this problem. I "think" I might, just might have found it! Ok, I am NOT as familiar with SBC motors as I am older MoPar motors.

I orginally bought this 32 stalled project 12 years ago, with the intention if finish building a COMPLETE '55 259" Ply motor 3-on-da-tree I had for several decades, into a '55 Ply Super Hy-Fire Hemi. Had the COMPLETE D-500, cam up, heads to "bolt on" this Ply motor for the Hemi conversion. However what I didn't have was the $6K "starting funds" (migh go as high as 10K!) just to get the 259 up and running before bolting the Hemi stuff on. So I converted the bone stock '62, 283 that was already in the 32 into something else that is unusial. Too long to get into "that' story.

OK, at the p***enger side of the block where the Riser, OEM water pump bolts on. There are 4 holes. 2, 3/8" mounting holes threaded, a big water p***age hole, and a smaller hole right below it. According to some Chevy Nova sites, and several SBC re-build sites,and You Tube that "bottom" hole is the help cool the right head. On my motor that hole p***age way is OPEN. Blowed air up through, and will have a picture (later showing a zip tie shoved up in the showing it's open).

Now, on the riser (picture later) that bottom hole is not even there! Plus, I don't see how I can modify the riser to open that bottom hole. Will NEED plenty of suggestions! Thanks and later.

 

If you're only running initial timing and no advance once running that explains the rapid temp rise. Picture it as if the combustion flame front is late to the party and making big heat in the exhaust p***ages and manifolds/headers. Starts on 4-6⁰ initial timing, once running vacuum brings it up another 10-12 vs stuck at 4-6. It's important.

But it sounds like you found a parts compatibility issue that may move you really close to right. Fingers crossed for ya...

 

Ok, here are the pictures my grandson took.

How do I open that bottom hole in the riser so coolant goes to that head? Thanks

 

I don’t know why but the riser was designed with that hole blanked out. The Zip’s instructions recommended connecting the hose from the heater ****** on the pump to this temperature sending unit hole in the right cylinder head but not all heads had that hole.


I think the next best thing would be to run a hose to the intake manifold and maybe you could T into that byp*** hose for the heater hose too, that would leave a NPT hole for the temp sending unit.


The Dorman bleeder pictured in an earlier post has a metric thread- M10-1.0, I’d get one and buy the tap, I wouldn’t trust that small screw you mentioned to come out in a few years if you want to bleed the system again. And lastly give that engine some vacuum advance connected to manifold vacuum and check your initial advance with the vacuum hose off and plugged.

 

Oh, YES I believe you about the fan being on backwards! I think I stated so back on page 2. I rooted around in my loom-num pile back then to find a slug in which to make the spacer whenever I found exactly what is causing this rapid boiling over, and get the system all put back together.

I watched 3 different you tube viedos on if that hole is pluged off it will cause overheating. As well as a statement about that hole being pluged can cause overheating on a Chevy Nova forum. You say it's a byp*** hole that can be eleminated. The statement was made, "If" the heater control valve is closed, the pump can byp*** that. I think there is something causing the whole system to "byp***" and not send any (or very little) coolant through the motor.

Much comment on "bleeding" (which I intend to do with the little bleeder screw when I refill.) Problem what is in my mind, since the '60's EVERY cooling systed I built, overhauled or replaced I have NEVER preformed any "bleeding". Never knew how to "bleed". Fill and go. Or fill, then top off and go. This the the first time I will be doing this "bleeding". Have the Zipps bleeder screw out with I'm refilling, when coolant starts to run out the screw hole, quickly install and tighten the little screw.

I have that 1777CW pump on order from Summit, plus another thermostat. When I get the pump painted and installed, I'll re***emble everthing. Whittle out the spacer. (hopefully the fan will not touch the radiator fins) Fill and bleed, or is it bleed and fill. Hopefully it will run long enough w/o overheating that I can use a timing light (not my ear) set the timing 6-7 degrees advanced. I'd be willing to bet the timing is around 10 advanced give or take, right now. I feel very aprehensive using new gaskets, cleaning mating surfaces, using more A-freeze, then finding out there is still a overheating problem.

 

I responded to your va*** advance suggestion in my Moriarity's post.

I do not have that "hole" you pictured. The pipe threaded port you have an arrow to on the manifol, I made a solid br*** plug (polished) and it's not used. The pipe threaded hole (driver's side) of the manifold you have pictured, is where I have the temp sending unit installed.

In your manifold picture, I do not see it, but my manifold has a pipe threaded port, that is used for the heater hose ******. My picture of the block w'pump mount holes, clear at the top you can see the ******. That hose runs to the cable operated heater shutoff valve, under the dash.

 

You haven't worked on a car with a water pump riser that potentially traps a big air bubble.

Also, when filling a normal (no water pump riser) empty system you have to wait until the thermostat opens until you can get the system full. When the stat opens, coolant level drops dramatically. That's because there was a bunch of air trapped when the stat was closed. So, if you have ever done that, you have bled a system.

 

Ok…bear with me for another chirp…

That ‘blocked off’ hole you think you found in the riser is not a blocked off hole.
The fella that designed/made the riser probably thought it through and ‘decided’ that he’d make his product so it could/would work with both gen I sbc blocks as well as later vortec blocks/heads (won’t get into the later crate blocks from Mex as they have the byp*** p***age as well). You could get creative and try to invent a way to use it, but why would you when you have other, arguably better, options available.
As you are using a heater you don’t really need an extra hose running into the p***enger side head. That solution is in zips instructions because it works, but when you’re running heater hoses there are other ways to manage this function. You could do that (your call), but why would you? Please reread my earlier post and just put in a better valve solution (or anything keeping that ‘byp***’ flow channel open and working) or if you are in love with your current shut off valve, how about using an inline byp*** upstream of the shut off valve? Might not be as efficient, but would work.
I’ve used these when trying to run/hide the heater hoses like you have them down low (instead of above the head).



All the timing input you’re getting from others here is totally valid as well, but you need to get your plumbing right first.

And in case you haven’t already confirmed it, make sure you are not under driving your pump. Pulley sizes matter. Use the sizes in the instructions and not some goofy billet 1:1 things. Feel free to ask me how I know, but you can probably guess.

You can heed or ignore my advice as I’ve only done the zips thing on a few gen I blocks and heads and only on two vortec head setups. Lots of guys on here that have done it more times than me I’m sure. Not sure why more of them haven’t chirped in yet (guessing it’s the ***le of your thread not including the Zips element).

Also, on the bleed valves: there is much in the way of conflicting info on the good old interweb (and on the HAMB too, sometimes), so maybe buy the valve and measure before you drill the riser. Lots of keyboard cowboys out there. Giddy-up.



.

 

And while I’m taking pics…here’s the union I travel with (along with a chunk of hose and some extra clamps) so I can isolate my heater core/valves if they decide to pop on me when on a long road trip. Easy way to connect the outflow hose ****** on the intake to the inflow nip on the water pump.



Cheers.
.

 

This is a Chev 235 like I'm ***uming the OP has.
Warren

 

No, OP has a V8 283 with a water pump riser that uses a L6 water pump similar to what’s on your 235.

Here’s what that riser looks like…
This example clearing show’s the raised boss @ 12 o’clock where a bleeder would get installed.

 

Sorry!
Warren

 

Don’t be

 

So as not to high jack this thread I started this one. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/zip-riser-flaw-“no-way”-but….1355431/#post-15975387