Featured Technical Boiling over,,,,,,, trouble shooting

Well then don't use anti-freeze. Just use straight tap water until you're sure there's no leaks and you've got the engine temps under control.

If you can't or don't want to use a timing light or the vacuum advance, at least connect a vacuum gauge to a source of full manifold vacuum for start up or break-in. Slowly advance (or retard) the initial timing and look for the highest, steady vacuum reading.

A stock or nearly stock engine should pull at least a steady 16 to 20 inches of vacuum at idle. Once everything is sorted then break out the timing light, set the initial timing with the vacuum advance disconnected and then reconnect the vacuum advance.

 

Another problem. Summit does NOT include a gasket with Flow-Kooler's 1777CW water pump. So for a dollar more (but 90cents less shipping cost) I re-ordered the 1777CW pump straight from Flow-Kooler that HAS a gasket. Go figure.

This thread is getting out of hand to me. I'm just too overwhelmed with m***ive amounts of information I have never encounted before, (have a hard time trying to process all that info through the dyslexic brain fog, my fault, very confusing) to a seeiming simple problem. Anyway. After re-***embly with these new parts and making a spacer to turn the fan around. "If" there is still an overheating issue. Plus with the m***ive amount of (flustrating, never before encounted) problems I have encounted with this build over the years, I just wasn't ment to have this car. It has to be haunted, possessed or something. I'll trade or send it down the road. I have to. I'm getting to end of the time limit I was told by the doctor I have left, I want to be able to enjoy, something. I can't "ride'' anymore, Meniere's Disease, so "in-the-wind" therapy is out.

I want to "thank" everyone for their help! Maybe after rereading these 4 pages for the umpteenth time. The brain fog will suddenly lift. Probably by that time the car will be gone, or it won't overheat anymore. Wheeeee.

 

Couple of things that have been stated by some posters probably need to be clarified before this comes to an end.

There have been some comments that the fan will not be drawing air through the radiator from front to back because of the way it is mounted. These comments are WRONG. The pitch of the fan blades is correct for the engine rotation direction (clockwise as viewed when looking from the front). The fan will be pulling air through the radiator towards the engine as it should be.

However, the OP's first pic shows that the fan is mounted backwards. It needs to be flipped front-to-back on the flange so the concave blade surfaces are facing towards the engine. The fan should be "scooping" the air as it rotates. Having the fan the wrong way 'round can severely affect it's efficiency to move air. This could be a factor in the OP's problem.

For those that think flipping a fan on it's flange will make it push instead of pull, you need to get one in your hands and play with it a bit............... a fan that is.

@Annette Chaplin , if it were me, I would get the fan sorted and get some timing into it to see if it sorts out the problem. Too early too walk away just yet.

 

I can’t argue with that but Annette has a hot rod for the street that needs to be sorted out. @Annette Chaplin how about posting your general location, maybe someone would offer some hands on help.

 

Like a bad penny,,,,,,,,,,,. Anyway.

It took several you tube videos on pulley ratios before I could partially understand what you guys, they are/were talking about. See if "this" is causing my boiling over problem.

Ok you pulley ratio experts. My double belt crankshaft pully is 7 5/16" outside lip to outside lip. The water pump pully is 6 3/8" outside lip to outside lip. So that means the WP is turning faster than the crankshft pully, correct? Is "this' ratio correct for my needs? (hold on there is way more to this problem)

Now. I bought a Flow-Kooler 1777CW pump and a 160 thermostat from them out in California. Took a week and a half to get here, and the end of that week to get them all installed, AND my fan TURNED AROUND the other way and mounted. Went to install the radiator,,,,,,,, the fan is TOUCHING the radiator on the bottom! Moved the radiator ahead at the bottom a 1/2" lots of clearance. However the friggin hood sides won't fit now.

Johhny Gee up there gave dementions of the 6 bladed fan. They corrospond to my fan size. All is ok there.

I had a conversation with Flow-Kooler's Customer Service, about pressing their 1777CW pump's pully/fan mount flange BACK towards the WP housing a 1/2". In other words, reverse spacing the fan away from the radiator. Their main consern is spacing the pully/fan TOO FAR AWAY from their pump! Whole page on their webside explaining the dangers why. Placing the flange towards the seal/bearing will work and will NOT overload the bearings is what they told me.

Now THAT problem is out of the way. I need a shortened double belt pully. I have a double belt water pump pulley (that looks like a "hat") that I can cut, shorten, weld and polish. However. It is 5 7/8" outside flange to outside flange. Slightly smaller than the chrome pulley on there in the picture. How will that ratio screw up/help ? I have a old MoPar single belt pulley, I KNOW they make the same pulley in a double belt. It is 6 13/16" Better, or worse? Thanks for you guys' help.

 

Thanks! Just outside of Morgantown, West "By God" Virginia!

 

NOBODY would stress over a 7/16 in diameter diff.!-use it

 

Large pulley 7 5/16" diameter @ 500 rpm, water pump pulley 6 3/8" diameter will turn 574 rpm.
Engine running @ 2700 rpm, the water pump will be spinning 3097 rpm.
Engine running @ 5500 rpm, the water pump will be spinning 6309 rpm.

Large pulley 7 5/16" diameter @ 500 rpm, water pump pulley 5 7/8" diameter will turn 622 rpm.
Engine running @ 2700 rpm, the water pump will be spinning 3361 rpm.
Engine running @ 5500 rpm, the water pump will be spinning 6846 rpm.

More rpm will for sure help with cooling with more coolant flow and fan speed.
How close to the pump body is the back of the pulley? That will decide how much you push the flange back along with belt alignment.

I would think about how you are going to drive the car, if its on the highway all the time at a decent rpm, then go with the 6 3/8" water pump pulley. If it has overdrive, go with the smaller 5 7/8". Around town the smaller one will work better due to traffic lights and general stop and go traffic.
A couple hundred rpm more helped my 250 stay cool with the A/C on, I changed to a smaller wp pulley. But I also hear the fan a lot more now since it runs faster.

 

Yes, YOU ARE CORRECT! The fan IS the problem! And, suposidly the simplest to remedy! The fan is into (touching) the radiator when turned around.

Wehn I "googled" 17," steel, 6 bladed radiator fans, there was boo-coo of them listed! I e-mailed asking each if their fans listed had a negative offset, (toward the motor) or a positive offset, (towards the radiator) and how much, about 90% of them that was listed, some, even though they had a different company listing, had the same "contact us" address. The ones (very few) that responded to my question simply stated, "Standard Offset." Ok, I do NOT know waht the "Standard Offest" is for a SBC motor! I do NOT know what the "standard offset" is for the fan blade that I have! I was NOT going to go through and buy each fan to try it out, see if it fits, then send it back if it did not fit. I alreday went through that headach/flustration with a dozen or so bottom radiator hoses over several month period! The hose part # you guys suggested, and what Zipp's suggested, so were not even close to fitting! They all had to be forced into aligning up with the bottom radiator outlet, and watrer pump outlet! A Gates # that wasn't even listed/suggested, came to closest in shape to fitting. But it had a slight kink in one of the bends. I wound up "piecing together" a bottom hose, with a piece of straight 90 hose 6" long after the 90. A piece of hose that was 35 degree bend, 6" long the same way, then cutting each one to length, then connecting them with a aluminum radiator hose connector. The hose I made slid on in a 'relaxed" position, worked perfectly. Yes, there is a spring inside that hose. Yes, I sprayed some WD-40 on a Q-tip and wiped the inside of each hose portion that went over outlets and fittings. Slides right on-off with ease.

Since I couldn't find out needed fan offest. What was the next soloution to get the fan away from the radiator. Press the WP mounting flange back towards the motor a 1/2" then shorten up the WP pully a 1/2" so it aligns back up with the crank pulley and Gen pully like it did originally when I had the fan on backwards.

Mr. Moriarity, since you are in a position of,,,,,,, authority, (might) have access to certain catorgories. "IF" you know of a way to obtain the required fan offset measurements, PLEASE tell me which fan will have the 1/2" required offset that wiil fit, I'll get someone to say a few "Hail Marys" Get Budda to "wink' at you, then try and get you "Blessed"!

Yes! I am in the process of getting Grandson to take boo-coo pictures! Thank you!

 

Randy was a top notch ‘zips guy’.
If you haven’t already done so, you may wish to go read his threads.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/members/deuce-roadster.877/

It sounds like you have the correct size pulley sizes so you shouldn’t need mess around with that aspect anymore. And don’t mess with the pump pulley depth unless your pulley alignments are really out of whack. I occasionally need to shim the pump pulley out (shim packs available everywhere), but have never needed to move one in. Not saying I never will…just not yet.
*** Also, if you can’t fit a standard six blade fan, you might just want to use a flex style one (they don’t flare out towards the rad) until you get the cooling issue nailed down. I’m still in the camp of air pocket and blocked byp***, so waiting to see results after those elements are addressed.

Your hose dilemma is interesting though. I have found the recommended hose (see zips instructions) has always worked for these zips with a few Walkers (various ‘editions’) and more recently a Johnson’s one. Only change I make is adding a spring/coil to ensure they don’t collapse. I’ve posted this pic on a couple build threads so folks can see for themselves how they fit.

Wish you’d post a few pics so we could maybe see what’s going on, but here’s a few that may help. Edit: just read that’s your plan as I’m writing this…



Just for ****s and giggles, whats your hood measurement at the top?
Wondering if you have some customizations that have wonkied up your engine bay size.
.

 

Did not have near this much trouble installing a zips on my 32. Followed their instructions. Did the bleed valve. Used a cast iron pump first a 230 ci 6 cyl. Used a 3 inch fan spacer. Few weeks back replaced the water pump. Bought the flow cooler. Bolted right back on. Didn’t use the bleeder option. I pumped up the radiator doing a leak check. It runs about five degrees warmer with the flow cooler. Still cool. Heater hose connection on pump back to heater hose connection on intake right front. 6 blade fan from old aire. Pulleys from the if I remember correctly.

 

I thought we had come to the ***umption, that the fan was on backwards, and I hadn't "bled" the system, "might" be the cause of the puking problem. Along with me volountary to up grade the T-stat to 160, and one of those "hi-volume" pumps from Flow-Kool.

After ***embling everything to see if all that cured the "puking", couldn't continue, because of fan to radiator clearance problems.

So I am stalled (again) until, either, find a fan that has some more offset, or increase the existing fan clearance by shortning up the w'pump/pulley spacing. One or the other. I doubt there will be a 17" steel 6 bladed fan with more offset out there. (secretely hoping) Plus I'm not at the required "pay grade" (or know anyone who is) to be able to severely modify the existing fan enough to fit safely.

Side note; Grandson was too busy today with his doins to take a bunch of pictures of my "old car". See what happens tomorrow.

 

GEE WHIZ! No wonder the reccomended hoses fit your application! You got enough room in there to throw two cats through! You could tie that hose in a figgin' knot and still have plenty of room left over!

The hood measurment at the top? I measured that a long time ago, but (sigh) "Old Farts Disease" combined with dyslexia, I forgot. I do know the hood tops are 32" long! "If" grandson takes the required, promised pictures tomorrow he was supposed to have taken today, I'll try and remember to measure it for you....

 

Vintage Air fans are 50/50 split, 2" total thickness. I have one and can confirm the measurements, mine is 17.25" diameter.

 

mmmmmmmm,,,,,,,, interesting. Thanks for the information, i'll chek 'em out!

Vintage Air's pictures are on the "generic" side. Can't tell much on the 50-50 split, 1" fan blade behind the w'pump's mounting flange, and 1" towards the radiator from the pump mounting flange. Wonder what the blade "pitch" is,,,,,,.

How does your Vintage Air fan work? Thanks.

 

Forgot; THANK YOU for the pulley size speeds!!

 

You could always test it without a fan to establish everything is operating satisfactorily. Hey, you could beg steal or borrow one of those big air mover fans and you could test for ages without the engine fan. Be all over it with an infra red temp gun. Better without the finger chopper flailing about?

Chris

 

I removed a 18" flex fan with big stainless steel blades, not one of the flat type flex fans. The 17" steel fan moves way more air than the flex fan did. I can feel it out in front of the grill being pulled into the radiator, couldn't with the flex fan. I called and asked about the fan, then measured it when I got it. It has plenty of pitch to the blades.

 

Still waitin on those pics so we can see what you are dealing with.
Did you use a stock firewall or did you modify it a bit?
I always butcher em a bit so I can set the engine in so it’s as close to the firewall as possible. I don’t use hei’s so no issue there. I have found that by doing it this way I not only get more room for my fans but also for my steering boxes. It’s all about tradeoffs with these little things, but after a few of em you learn what affects what.
Pete and Jake’s cheat sheets are great helpers when building these little beasts. Maybe check your front measurement and let us know how much less room you’re working with.



FWIW: This one I even used a clutch fan in.
You may have noticed that in my builds I almost always use one of those cheap abs fan shrouds too. Probably overkill, but my builds don’t overheat.



My buddy liked to use those flex fans on his builds. Lotsa sizes available and the blades don’t flare forward. He painted the centre part black to help disguise em. Just food for thought.



.

 

I think all of the request pictures are here. Kind of a ordeal for wifey and I to get pictures taken, and posted. Grandson took the pictures hurredly Sunday. Wifey was able to resize, turn'em around and post them just now.

The requested radiator shell measurement, will have to wait until I get the radiator back on.

OK, After a lengthly, informative, 'bench racing" conversation with Vintage Air this morning, (they were on a ground line!) on the 50-50 fan that was suggested by Joe H, (THANKS!) I now have the correct spacing fan on order. (groan) have to paint, tip, pin-stripe, clear the new fan before instalation.

I mentioned pressing the w'pump mounting pulley back a 1/2". Then, shorten up a double groove pulley. Look at the 1/2" wide masking tap on the one pulley. That is waht I was planning on cutting off that pulley, (think, chopping a top) then weld the two parts back together. Machinest buddy, was going to cut a "step groove" in the two pully pieces so they would interlock back together for welding.
Well, with the advent of the 50-50 fan, I won't have to preform the chopping the fan pulley.

I have been going through all of the chrome, double grooved 5 7/8" OD pulleys that is listed by google. Contacting each "customer service" asaking for height measurements. There seems to be only one size (6 1/4") for SBC water pump. No ***ortment sizes avalible. Look at the pulley pictures. The chrome pulley, and the pully with the masking tape beside each other are the same height! Same bolt pattern! Have to make a 3/4" to 5/8" "shim", or weld up the 3/4" hole in the 5 7/8" pulley and machine it back to 5/8". I would now have a chrome double belt pulley that would "speed up" the water pump a few hundred rpms, to maybe correct the overheating.(?)

With the 50-50 fan I won't have to press the pump mounting pulley or shorten (chop) a 5 7/8" OD double belt pulley! (whew)

Anything else you sharp, eagle eyed patrons "see" off, or not right in the pictures?

Thanks again for your help/suggestions.

 

In conversation we had, the fan I mentioned does not have the curved tips like your fan does.. So I’ll ask this. If the tips were not bend forward the fan would clear?

 

Yes,,,,,. But, if the blades were "flattened out" a bit, they wouldn't "scoop air" would they?

 

How many years have you seen airplanes with their tips just going straight out? More years than resent right? A fan is just an airplane wing going round and round.

 

Would it be possible to just bend the blades back 1/2" or what ever you spaced it out?

 

My experience with these type of fans and the flex types has been that they work if you have excess cooling capability but fail on systems that need a lot of air movement to keep cool because they flatten out and quit pushing much air. My latest big engine - small cooling system (limited by space) has to use a non flex type that moves lots of air and does not flatten out much at all as it's the only thing that can move the air I need to stay cool on hot days. Flex fans and that type you have pictured couldn't cut it.

I figure wasting a few horsepower and some MPG for cooling is worth being able to make that horsepower in the conditions I drive in. It's the fun car so it can burn more to make fun...lol!

 

I am a little heasetant about changing ANYthing of a fan blade! Changing pitch, length, width, or any measurment will and can cause an out of balance/wobble factor. Rebent chunk of blade may fly off! Anyway, other than painting a fan blade, doing anything else is way above my pay grade. Thanks

 

This image shows where the problem lies. The measurement shown from the table up to the mounting surface is the amount the fan blades/tips will extend forward from the mounting flange. Can you tell us exactly what this dimension is on your fan? A fan with a more rearward offset will give more clearance to the radiator surface. If you can find one without the kick on the blade ends, this will also solve your problem.

 

Yeah, that’s a very common complaint/argument.
I’ve used em on occasion when space was an issue (OT cars), and found they moved enough air but I hated the hum/sound they make. .
.