Technical Break in oil was not enough

Put another 25 miles on it today and no unusual noises and fluids staying where they should be so I think it's good to go,will change the oil again in another 25 miles and need to find another temp sending unit since the gauge is all over the place.

 

A rep from a well known cam company told me at PRI they are currently not selling any flat tappet cams because the quality of available new lifters is so poor.

 

If any of you guys have ever watched UTG Uncle Tony on youtube, he has a interesting video on the cam failure epidemic. The cams are not being ground with a tapper and or the lifters have no crown on the face. He has gotten a bunch of new lifters and checked them. The results are interesting. Lots of new lifters and cams with no tapper or crown machined in.

 

The latest issue of Hot Rod (0223) has an article about ZDDP additives and their chemical composition differences. Apparently there are differences between ZDDP for diesels and ZDDP for gasoline engines. That would make you wonder about the wisdom of adding "off the shelf" ZDDP to existing oil rather than buying oil that is already configured for break in and containing the right ZDDP. I would post the article, but since its still on the newstand, it probably wouldn't be proper. Can't post a picture of the cover as its not Hamb friendly. Suffice it to say the car on the cover does not have a drivers door and the caption says ...."We Blew The Doors Off"

It does say that too much ZDDP or the wrong ZDDP can actually harm an engine.

 

I watched UTG and will inspect the parts more closely the next time,the engine is doing fine with the used parts so far but have not driven very much due to weather.

 

So we've had this discussion several times around here. There are multiple different compounds identified as ZDDP; and that all ZDDP is not alike or equal in performance. That said, diesel engines and gasoline engines are both subject to friction and wear, the internal wear points in an engine don't know or care what the fuel is. There does seem to be a concentrated effort to discourage the use of diesel motor oil by people connected in some ways to smaller specialty lube companies (like Amsoil, Lucas and Driven) that want to sell you their oil instead.

 

I also am in the club! Have been building 327SJ for years without a failure and have always repeated all of the necessary precautions and used high zinc oil. Have had two failures in the last year and there is no re-course with suppliers or manufactures. Even the "good parts" manufacturers are using overseas suppliers. Consequently, I am on my very last rebuild ever... selling all my equipment to make sure I dont do any more.

 

Are you saying that there is no difference in the formulation of ZDDP for gasoline engines and ZDDP for Diesel engines? That someone purchasing a ZDDP additive and putting it in their oil doesn't have to worry about whether they use Type 1 or Type 2 ZDDP ? Doesn't sound right to me, but I'm no expert. I think the diesel vs Gasoline thing is more about expected operating rpms of diesel vs Gas.

I'm also not going to get into a long discourse on this. My purpose was to inform other grass roots rodders, that there is an article (not in depth but an overview) that could be of interest to them. It simply points out that there are basically two types of ZDDP and even a mixture of the two........and that using the wrong one or the wrong amount can be detrimental instead of helpful. Anyone who is interested should read the article and decide for themselves if they learned anything helpful.

So, my job is done here............

 

Your job is done? All you did was muddy the waters.

There are 2 basic types of ZDDP, primary and secondary, not diesel and gasoline! And most engine oils contain a mixture of both. Beyond primary and secondary types they are different chemistries from different additive companies, it's not so simple. And I've never advocated for the use of aftermarket zinc additives; engine oils are formulated with specific blends of additives that are tested and known to work well together, sometimes synergistically; and when you dump a can of Joe Blow's Speedy Zinc Additive on top of somebody else's carefully ballanced formulation you have no idea of how well the mixture will or will not work, or what kind of mess you're creating. Engine oils shouldn't be blended at home in the bathtub and you shouldn't play amateur chemist with your engine oils.

 

I've never broke in a cam, but it seems weird that original factory cams dont have many issues with coming back to life, but new cams can wipe out completely in 20 minutes?

 

Nope, all I did was point out that there are two different types of ZDDP (1 &2) as well as blends of 1 and 2. I also mentioned that from what the article says, the difference in their application was based on the rpm where the engine of choice operates. Diesels operate at lower rpms. Gasoline engines tend to operate at somewhat higher rpms. A gasoline engine built for racing would tend to operate at elevated rpms and use type 2 ZDDP. I did not say that the ZDDP was formulated for Diesel or Gas, only that the Diesel and Gas have different operating ranges....therefore the selection of a ZDDP formula would normally be different for each type of engine. Are you suggesting that full on Type 2 would be OK for use in a
Diesel ? Or that Type 1 is good for a Gasoline engine ? Thats why there are different blends by different oil companies........Type 1 and Type 2 blended in different amounts.

Here is exactly what I said:
The quote below was a question preceded by "Are you saying:

What I said:

You are continually looking for a fight any time someone dares to mention oil and additives, and continually reading things into what I say. I'll make it as simple as I can, then you can try to twist it, accuse me of saying things I didn't say, and pick flyshit out of pepper in your quest to be recognized as the worlds greatest guru on oil... all you want to........I'm done.

Folks........I am simply saying that there are different types of ZDDP and they may help or harm an engine if used incorrectly. Its not one size fits all, thats why there are different TYPES and different blends of those types. There is a helpful article on it in the current issue of HOT ROD magazine.

Here is a snippet of what the article says.......it goes on and explains even more about why.

 

Not looking for a fight, just trying to clarify things when people like you stir up the mud. I can't help it if you're thin skinned and get butt hurt easily. That quote from the article is simplistic and inaccurate. You want actual helpful information on ZDDP? Here:

 

For some solid info on this matter, go to Terrill's Speed Talk, Engine Tech, about 30 topics down, read "Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil" , read all of it, pay attention to poster RDY4 WAR, especially page 3, ran it past my Lubrizol pal, " yeah, pretty good on additives, no comment on companies named.

 

My Buddy Hank just got a new I phone. 78 years old, first phone, and he sends me links and shit. I'm just saying, you want me to go checking rabbit holes best provide the link to do so.

 

Of course magazine articles are always absolute fact , WINK , WINK !!

 

It's a great site populated by known high performance engine builders and factory engineers.....Also has a vintage forum showing 600 hp Y blocks and Flatheads...

 

Thanks for the lead, I just looked it up, and I'll check it out. I've been looking for other good forums and they seem to be few and far between, I'm hoping this one works out

 

Since my engine only revs to 5k i should be fine with diesel... right?

 

Rotella T4 15-40 diesel oil is very popular in motorcycles having a wet clutch and gearbox sharing engine oil.I mean very popular in older bikes that can rev over 8000 rpm and long distance riders.It also resists shearing caused by the gearbox...In a dozen or more years no one reports oil caused failures. Not to say it should be used in any engine however without being sure is is the proper weight and so on...

 

At the risk being accused of "looking for a fight any time someone dares to mention oil and additives, and continually reading things into what I say " , this information is simply wrong. I'm sorry, your source is giving wrong information, it is overly simplistic and inaccurate, as I already posted above. Engine oil formulations use a mixture of both primary and secondary ZDDP, the main differentiators (as far as performance) between them being that one type tends to plate out faster than the other, but it also tends to wear faster; while the other tends to take longer to plate out but lasts longer (is more resistant to being worn off the wear surfaces). Also, one type tends to reduce friction more than the other. And they have differing performance in neutralizing acids, some are more basic, some are more neutral. So engine oil formulators use a mixture of the two based on that formulators experience and his personal biases and opinions; it is NOT that diesel engine oils use one type and gas engine oils use another type, or that one type is used for low rpm's and the other is used for high rpm's. That is bogus information and you really should stop spreading it. You are talking about something as if you know what you're talking about and you haven't got a clue. The editors of Hot Rod magazine are not lubrication experts; there are experts in the lubrication business, and they don't work for Hot Rod. Hot Rod does sell a lot of advertizing though, and they have long, long, been suspected of tailoring their articles to favor the advertisors in their mag. I would advise anyone to keep that in mind. Some lubricant companies would like you to buy their special hot rod specific motor oil, and every quart of Rotella that is sold to a guy with a flat tappet cam is 1 qt of oil they didn't sell. Buyer beware! As I posted earlier, I see a concerted effort out there to convince people not to use diesel engine oil in their gasoline engines, using 2 common bogus claims; typically there is the "diesel engine oils have too much detergent" argument; and now there is this "diesel engine oils use the wrong type of zddp" argument. Just stop it already. Use whatever brand/type/viscosity of oil you want, I don't care. I do care about b.s. information being passed along as fact by people who have no clue what they're talking about.

I posted a part of an SAE paper on ZDDP above, I wonder if you read it. Did you see any reference to zddp type and engine rpms? Give me a break!

Here's more information on the subject, check out this thread on Bob Is The Oil Guy https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/primary-vs-secondary-zddp.295359/ , look at the questions being asked by RDY4WAR; gee, I wonder where he got these questions from.... Then read the responses from SonofJoe, who obviously has quite a bit of experience in oil formulation. This is from one of his responses: "Perhaps the first thing to say is you very rarely get 'pure' primary ZDDPs used in engine oils. ..What you tend to see used are so-called 'mixed' & 'secondary' ZDDPs. In this context, 'mixed' means that a combination of both primary & secondary alcohols are used to react with P2S5. There are reasons to do this. First primary alcohols are relatively cheap while secondary alcohols help with additive solubility. Matching individual ZDDPs to individual applications is a very tricky business for the simple reason that ZDDP impacts on so many aspects of oil performance. A ZDDP that might be optimum for wear might be rubbish on Teost so there's usually a need for compromise."

When more questions come he responds: "You're asking a lot of good questions but I suspect, no one, not even seasoned industry specialists, can give you the detailed answers you're seeking." Maybe they should just aske the guys at Hot Rod....

He even addresses the question of detergents interferring with zddp: "I personally wouldn't say high levels of over based metallic detergents, be they Calcium or Magnesium based, would ever meaningfully interfere with the surface action of ZDDP. Very occasionally you might see ZDDP 'complex' with uncapped ashless dispersant but even with this, I doubt it impacts on ZDDPs ability to form a protective, sacrificial film. Remember the film only forms at points of high pressure and/or temperature (eg a cam tip) which causes ZDDP in the oil to breakdown to the very reactive Phos & Sulphur species which react with metal."

I haven't read the entire thread, but there is another guy posting links to technical papers which probably also contain some good information on the subject of zddp.

 

And late 70s 305 impalas.. losing ex lobes... pull intake, drain oil, blast with kerosene, repl filter, timing cover... slam in a reground cam.. new lifters, never failed again. Problem surfaces now and then. Quality = machining, heat treat, oil...etc. etc. Any one is off... highly loaded component will let you know.

 

... damn ...

Did I miss a good food fight or what? I am usually the cause of most.

Gentlemen,

The basic cause of cam failure is today's machining protocols. Quality is non-existent.

You are buying junk whether you realize it or not.

Watch these two videos -





Of course, the correct usage of engine oils and assembly are important, but you are getting shot in the foot (IMO) before the race even starts.

SEARCH FLAT TAPPET CAM FAILURES and you will get a plethora of current info.

BTW - DETERGENT and DISPERSANT packages cause oil aeration @ HI-RPM. That's why RACING OILS are low on it.

 

And it is generally not the cam blank at fault (if USA) but the lifters available today are not machined correctly either -



And this is a problem with current OEM and aftermarket.

 

I checked my Comp Cams lifters from 10yr back, they look like these GM lifters.

My buddy wiped Summit cam in 5min 402 bbc..... Lifters are China..plain white boxes. dropped one on floor it shattered into several pieces. Dropped another it shattered, I never seen that before, 40yr tearing down engines. J.U.N.K.

2nd cam...had him buy.. lifters, better quality...with insert like pics below. Running today...200mi, so far so good. Same block, same oil. Q.U.A.L.I.T.Y.

 

He mentions that several cams do not have the taper on the lobes that cause the lifter to turn, as well as several lifters he's inspected do not have the crown on the face which also causes the lifter to turn. I would bet either or both of these conditions are involved in many of the failures we hear about.

And is also why they probably aren't the best choice for street use, unless you change the oil frequently. I know, somebody is now going to post how they've used racing oil for 30 years and never had a problem....

 

I was just enjoying the fight like you're going to fix metallurgy and machining problems with oil.

And that anything that's worked in the past is relevant to the current supply situation.

 

I was fortunate to see (found it, looking for a test engine in a R&D center basement), the ACE Diesel cam-less engine. .. hyd acuated valves.. circa mid 70s. .. talk about relevant today..50yr ago.

 

Seems to me that Bruce Crower was talking about electric solenoid operated valves back in the 70's too. It may have just been theoretical, I don't know if anyone every tried it, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out he experimented with them. I remember him writing about variable valve timing decades before it became a reality.

 

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That indicates the lifter is made by DELPHI (USA). 1st class act.

Supposedly COMP and HOWARDS sources theirs from DELPHI.