Technical C4 bellhousings and convertors???

I'm staring at a pile of parts. I have a Ford 302 with 164 tooth flywheel and a C4 with the RF-D7DP-7976-AA bellhousing. I'm having difficulty locating a torque convertor. The convertor that was in the transmission, which is for a 164T flywheel is too big. I keep going around and around with the guy who built the transmission. He's saying that this convertor is the only one for the 164T flywheel and its out of a different transmission or some such thing. So, I'm going to go talk to the convertor guy directly. Cores are tough to come by so I might have to buy one from summit or some such thing. Anyone know what convertor I should be looking for? Like what this bellhousing would have been on OE? Thanks in advance.

 

bellhousing would be 77 Granada....

https://www.eatondetroitspring.com/ford-numbering/

 

First off, a Granada bell C4 had a 157 tooth flywheel. I do not think a 164 tooth wheel fits in there.
A 164 tooth flywheel typically is used in light trucks, and maybe some other bigger sedans.

Converters built after 1970 used a 26 spline input shaft. (Prior to 1970 the input shafts had 24 splines.)
I think you need a 157 tooth flex plate, block plate and a 26 tooth splined torque converter.

 

A stock Boss 302 engine was equipped with a 164 tooth flywheel.

 

You have opened a huge worm can . Not one of Ford’s better ideas . 157 vs 164 tooth , internal balance , external balance . V8 or 6 cyl . Made my make up new potty words trying to determine what I needed and where to get one .

 

If you intend to use a C4 transmission, is it case-filled or pan-filled? The pan-filled C4, found in trucks and vans, has a larger bell housing for the 164-tooth ring gear. The case-filled transmissions have a smaller bell housing for the 157-tooth ring gear, and an 11-inch torque converter (10 1/2-inch bolt pattern) was used. C4s used in Pintos and Mustang II had a 149-tooth ring gear.

I don't know why the Boss 302 was mentioned. No 69 or 70 Boss 302 left the factory with an automatic transmission.

According to the the bell housing part number, it's for a case-filled transmission/w 157-tooth ring gear.

Usable C4 torque converter cores are hard to come by. Several years ago I bought a Hughes 11-inch C4 torque converter for a case-filled transmission. The torque converter was not an original C4 core and had what I call "wings" to which the mounting studs were attached. As mentioned, 69-up transmissions had a 26-spline input shaft (both ends for 69, 26-24 70-up).

 

As Squirrel said, the bellhousing is for a '77 Granola. More specific, it's a 157 tooth case fill bellhousing for a 302 equipped Granola.

 

May I ask a dumb question?
Why thank you
How to tell the difference between case filled or pan filled C4?

Just curious because I have one out back from an early 70’s Van.

 

Does the dipstick tube go into the passenger side of the case, right behind where the bellhousing bolts (or is there a hole there)? If not, it's a pan fill.

 

I’ll take a look at it tomorrow, thanks. Now I know!

 

This site should answer all of your questions: pigseye.com/sadie/trans/c4.htm.

By the way, a C5 transmission is just an updated C4. It has a lockup torque converter that requires a deeper bell housing. It also has two more clutch discs, and it has 1/4 npt cooler-line fittings vs 1/8 npt for C4s, and 1-qt. deeper pan. If you use a C4 torque converter (non-lockup) with a C5, you'll also need a C4 valve body. This might help as well: YouTube.com/watch?v=D-Rzq5WO-MA

 

Pan fill, I can’t remember one from a car always trucks.

 

Big cars had them. Like late 70’s LTD with a 400M engine. Same bellhousing as a 429/460.

 

take a look at this converter from AutoZone 71 Maveric v8 #fm18a 157 tooth 26 spline may be what your looking for

 

Precision Of NewHampton lists all the different torque converters.
https://gopnh.com

Bill

 

Well here's another little fun filled Ford fact: The "case filled" transmissions had a singular set of bolts that hold both the bellhousing and the front pump in place (inside the bellhousing).
The "pan filled" transmissions had two sets of bolt circles within the bellhousing, one set to hold the front pump assembly in place, and a different set of bolts to hold the bellhousing to the transmission case.
Serious drag racers who are using the C4 transmission because if its low drag characteristics (vs the larger, beefier C6) actually prefer the earlier pan fill cases because the additional set of bolts holding the front pump make the earlier pan fill transmission stronger. We're talking cars in the range of 800 - 1000 HP so that's not a factor in most traditional HAMB cars.

 

True, but the pan-filled transmission takes up more space. You'll want the case-filled where space is limited.

 

OK so here's what we got.... 302 Ford w/50 oz 164T flywheel. '66 case fill C4 w/24 spline input shaft and '77 164T bellhousing. I've been looking and the convertors I've seen for the '77 fords are for a 26 spline input shaft. There might be an earlier 164T application for a 24 spline input shaft, but I'm thinking I'm going to have to go to the 157T set up all around.

 

Converter should be a 12", 1.375" pilot diameter, with drain plug next to bolt hole, for a 77, 164t bellhousing and crank.
24 spline is early model.
Granada may be a 157 tooth flex plate and a 11" converter, with drain plug hole in flex plate between bolt holes and a shorter bellhousing.
If that's the case, you would need to change flex plate and backing plate and use an 11" converter with 24 spline and a 1.375" pilot.

I can look up the numbers tomorrow when at the shop for a Dynamic Torque Converter part number and then see if I can cross reference it to Dacco or Precision of New Hampton.

Bill

 

Thank you!
The Granada had a 164T flexplate. Even if I identify a 24 spline convertor cores is a problem. I have an 11" convertor, so if I cant find one for this flexplate, I'll find a 157T setup.

 

So, you have a 66 C4, 24 spline 11" converter?
Where did the 1977 bell housing come from?

Bill

 

Wow ! Put a Glide in it and be done ! I prefer Ford stuff but damn so may changes and most mid year , suck

 

While powerglide transmissions are as prolific as 9" Ford rear ends in all kinds of hot rods, they are far from monolithic in their design, with many changes in their history, some of which can get you in trouble on a rebuild if you are not paying attention to year-to-year differences.

Now, back to the topic...

 

Dynamic Torque Converter part numbers:

DF11:
11", 24 Spline, 1.375" Pilot, 5.250" Mounting stud radius, Drain plug between mounting studs.
For use with 157t flexplate and shorter bell housing.

DF16:
12", 24 Spline, 1.375" Pilot, 5.700" Mounting stud radius, Drain plug next to mounting stud.
For use with 164t flexplate and taller bellhousing.

You should be able to cross reference those numbers to Dacco or Precision Of New Hampton.

Here is a chart of different C-4 Bellhousings.
As yo can see, you'r bellhousing is for a 157t flexplate, 11" converter.

Bill

 

1960s use the smaller 24 input shaft, the larger 26 started in 1970. In case you didn't know

 

The Bellhousing was on the transmission with the wrong convertor, probably out of a C5, which is what the tranny builder insisted the bell was from, even though the convertor was too big. I got an 11" convertor from a friend of mine. He insisted this bell was for a 157T so he brought a convertor and flexplate to try and resolve the problem

I know that's what the chart says, but this bellhousing is for 164T flywheel. I have already fitted it to the engine with the starter and the 164T separator plate. I have also fitted it with a borrowed 157T flywheel and the starter doesn't align with the ring gear, nor does the 157T separator plate align with the starter mounting.

Thanks for the part numbers. I'm going to look into it, but converter cores are scarce and I don't want to pony up for a new convertor since I already got my hands on an 11". I located a 157T bellhousing at a local tranny shop so I'm probably going to go pick it up, switch the flywheel and be done with it.

 

I tend to agree with you, there seems to be much miss-information in W.W.W. which bell housing that is.
I did find a photo of one and it looks like a 164t bellhousing to me.
I have at least 5 pan fill bellhousings, some 6 cyl, and probably both 157t and 164t bellhousings, but they are burried under 40 years of accumulation of "stuff".
Be sure the 11" converter you have is for a 24 spline input.
Not sure the factory ever made a 157t flexplate with 50 OZ weight for C-4, maybee AOD, or may have to go aftermarket.
Would like to know the outcome.

Bill

 

Got a 400 Cleveland with a c4 in a old merc it has a bell housing just for the 400 Cleveland the top bolt spacing will tell you what you got there’s a 400 Cleveland site with the measurements good luck

 

So ultimately I made the decision to go 157T. 50oz Flexplate and separator plate from a local vendor, 11" 24 spline converter from my buddy and a spare bellhousing from the tranny shop. Bing, Bang, Boom.

 

Thanks for the update. Glad you got it figured out.

Bill