I’m gonna ask here: so the stock starter, 168 tooth flywheel, 11.5 bolt pattern converter, and engine plate all worked before I blew it apart I subs***uted a 164 tooth flex plate for the 168, a 10.5 bolt pattern stall converter, same engine plate, and a mini hi torque starter from NPD. So first thing seems like there’s an issue with the converter and figment. Every Ford converter I’ve seen has studs on it...the Hayes I ordered uses bolts. I had to put a long bolt in to pull it to bolt it together..seemed odd. It appears to be leaking..seeing a red fluid drip at the bellhousing..called the Holley tech line..what a joke..guy read me the instructions...I’d return it, but had to do when ya fill it with fluid. The instructions say to shim the converter..not sure how to do that on a c4...I’ll attach the instructions.. also the mini starter will not bolt up squarely..took the first one back, haven’t gotten to the second one yet, but the NPD shows no differences other than one for AT and one for MT. was hoping to blip the starter to see what happens with converter...now I’ve got a host of problems that don’t make sense. I was on B&M site last night looking at their stuff..much better instructions and details. I do have a pump mount trans according to their instructions I should have a 10.5 inch bolt pattern converter...a 11.5 came out....this is getting ridiculous Any insight would Be appreciated
IF I remember right, it's been a long time since I did this, what they call a stepped case is a pan fill transmission, and takes the larger 11.5" converter and 164t flexplate, same size as the AOD uses. Your pump mount bell tells me you have what is called a case filled, and takes the 10.5" 157T flexplate. I've never seen a case fill with the larger converter, but that's not to say there wasn't one. Just like your 168t flexplate, I've never saw one of those either, only 164t and 157t.
Odd thing is mines a pan fill....this thing has me so confused...was running a 168 tooth flex plate and a 11.5 converter..
Here’s what I’m working with and what I’ve discovered...so anybody know if there’s a difference in 164 tooth bellhousing from a size standpoint?
Going back and rereading your original post, you said something about having to shim the converter and the new converter using bolts instead of studs. Since that is an aftermarket converter instead of a FOMOCO one, that is probably the difference. Aftermarket stuff isn't always bolt in and go, at least for me it isn't, sometimes it requires tweaking a bit. As to seeing a little fluid leaking, I don't remember if you said if you changed the converter seal? Maybe the seal is a bit worn, or the converter is a touch undersized.
Sounds like the problem is using the 10.5 converter. The "flared bell" 164/168 tooth would have come with a 11.4, and thats what you removed, but your new one is 10.5. Those instructions say not to use the 10.5 with your transmission.
Ok had to take a step back from this.....so yes when the converter was pulled up to the flex plate it was to short when bolted up. So I think I’ve got some things figured out. Trans is a 65 C4 24 spline Tail shaft is a 64 Bell is large 164 tooth ( had a 168 tooth flex plate ) The converter that came out had a 11.5 bolt pattern and was much larger overall than the Hays I bought that was called out for by Jegs and summit..24 spline, 10.5 pattern, etc So I bought a multi pattern flex plate 164 tooth flex plate and bolted it all up...problems arose.. pulled it out today..compared converters in the bellhousing about 2” difference in where they sit when seated..that would explain why it didn’t bolt up to the flex plate correctly So do I look for a 157 tooth bellhousing and flex plate...it’s smaller, better clearance for headers and starter, I’ll attach pics with what I’m working with
You have a C5 transmission, not a C4. A 65 C4 would be a 5 bolt bellhousing, yours is a 6 bolt, 67 and later. A C5 had a manual lockup torque converter, which most got replaced with a regular one. That, and maybe some valve body differences are all that is different from a C4 and C5. Yours is a pan fill C5 {I think all C5's were pan fill} with a 26 spline input shaft, 164t flexplate. 24 spline stopped sometime in mid 70's or earlier. Your bell bolts to the case with a circle of bolts outside the pump. There is no 157t bell that bolts up like that, although it's said you can use a pump mounted 157t bell from the earlier transmission with a matching torque converter. I think you have some mismatched parts for two different transmissions.
Hmmmm this just gets more confusing...C4’s had a vent tube above the servo....C5 didn’t...see below Mine has that vent tube..also mine has a screw in modulator..C5 had push in..I never thought this could be such a cluster...
I think bamamav is thinking correctly the C5 bell housing is much deeper than a C4 because of the lock up converter used in the C5 transmission
Sorry...mine....vent tube clearly seen, C5 didn’t have this. I’ve traced the bellhousing to a 70’s full size Truck or Car
By the casting number it is a 1965 case C5AP is a 1965 casting number, it could have a later bell housing bolted to it
But a 1965 case would be a 5 bolt block pattern, and the bell would be bolted to the 7 pump bolts. His clearly shows a 6 bolt block pattern and a 5 bolt bell. So, I may be wrong, have been before, but I think it's a C5 with the deep bell like oldsman said. You need a normal shallow bell off a pan fill C4, then your flexplate and converter should work.
Loveoftiki, I'm going to say a prayer for you, to give you continued patience. I've been dealing with Ford mismatches off and on, for a while. You'll get it sorted out.
Didn't you pull this transmission from your car? And you bought new flexplate and converter? The flexplate is not causing any issues but the converter is. So why not just get the right converter that works with everything else you already have and be done? Do you still have the old one?
So...problem was I bough the wrong bolt pattern converter..put fluid in it..went to bolt it up and realized what I’d done. Easy solution was to buy a new flex plate with both patterns..size wise the converter that was in it vs what I bought are night and day. If you lay them flat on the ground the new hays is about 2” shorter. What’s happening is when I pull the converter up to the flex plate it’s coming off the shaft. Also I’ve only seen ford converter with studs.. the Hays is a nut and bolt deal. I set the old converter in and marked it in the bell did the same with the Hays and it’s about a 2 inch difference when seated
Just as a bell housing depth comparison, this is a later case fill C4. A little less than 6". Sent from my SM-G900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Yes I did...bought a 164 tooth flex plate at NPD and a Hughes converter..spoke to the Hughes folks and they helped me out. Got me the PN for the right set up....with studs like a Ford should have on it..it went together prefect... Still haven’t got the car on the road..was getting close until work and Covid lock down happened..
I just read all this for the first time,,,,,man I was so confused and twisted,,,,,it’s all over my head with Ford automatics. At least all these guys know this stuff . But,,,,I kept thinking,,,,it was good until he changed converters,,,,it was good until he changed converters . I’m glad you got it straightened out,,,and got the right converter . Tommy
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