Technical Cadillac flathead horsepower tricks

Thanks wyatt!

So what other tweaks/modifications are out there? 'm sure a lot of tricks used on ford flatheads could be applied to some extent, so let's here some!

 

Well Buddy, I knew they were heavy but that is really some weight to get moving from a standing start.
I'm with Wyatt on the bottom end thoughts.

The only other thing I see which is not a traditional is to have an electric drive to the water pump, as you have mostly covered all other aspects of tweeking.
It comes down to a) making extra HP with mods, b) getting more efficiency with what you got or c) directing a & b HP you have to the wheels.

 

RUSS AND WYATT, I AGREE THAT WITHOUT MAJOR MODS, THE BOTTEM END IS THE DRAWBACK, BUT IF A WAY WAS FOUND TO MODIFY THE BOTTEM END, IT WOULD CHANGE THE EQUATION. I PROBABLY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY, BUT IT'S BEING DONE. CHECK THIS OUT, FROM ANOTHER BOARD. THIS IS FAT BOYZ MOTORSPORTS.

"One of the engines in the mix is a Flathead Cadillac. Some of us think there is more to be done with the vintage engines. Attached are a few pic's of a new head. The combustion chambers are a proprietary design and cannot be shown now. Don't have pics of the pistons or con rod's that are in design. Also block girdle and reworked block."





PRETTY INTERESTING, HUH? I'M DEFINATELY GOING TO FOLLOW THIS BUILD. I ALSO SPOKE WITH A FELLOW HAMBER TODAY, AND HE'S WORKING ON SOME PRETTY TRICK MODS FOR THESE MOTORS. I WON'T SAY WHO, BECAUSE HE'S NOT READY TO TELL.

BUT I DO KNOW THAT WE WILL ALL SEE THEM HERE!

 

Didn't see them mentioned, but I say a guy with reground cams who has one left on ebay last night. Search for Cadillac flathead, it'll come up.

 

ha lol, I just got a huge kick out of that. I believe its 38flattie above selling it on ebay right?

I've always thought that a crank girdle would be tits. I'd heard about the new heads, heard they are here in Texas but thats all I know. Not sure what my take on those heads are. I like new stuff, but they dont have that vintage vide going, but for a race motor, HELL YEAH!!!!

 

I just figure there is a point with these old engines where you need to ask yourself what you are actually try to achieve.

I want to run mine and dont want to break it.
I want it to look the part and maybe even make it look like it has more HP than it does, but at the end of the day I am just tidying up an old engine and giving it a 2nd chance.
My Cadillac engine is mostly nostalgia/novelty value since the kind of money I have spent so far I could have lot more HP and many more advantages from amny other engines a little more modern.

I guess nobody ever tried an OHV conversion on these suckers!
The girdle would be interesting to see.

 

BINGO!!!!
I've got race motors for going fast, and pushing the envelope. My Caddy Flattys arent those.

 

Wyatt, you are correct, it's my cam, my wife's epay account.

Russ, i agree with all that you have said. The money we put into these would easily have bought me a hemi, if that was my desire.

In my search for more horsepower, and a smoother running motor, i keep running into the same thing- the bottem end is the catch. I'm simply looking for any trick, that will let me build a better motor than i currently have.

I realize that for what i'm trying to accomplish, i'm probably nearly there. I do enjoy seeing what others have done, like this racing motor, or von mindon's blown one. If i can learn even one more little trick, i'm that much farther ahead. Especially since this isn't exactly mainstrem!

Just today, Tom Kidd was kind enough to send me horsepower tests, and diagrams to take material out of the heads, for higher lift cams.this info was from Cadillac, and Frank Burrell, and i realize that i'm probably the only one that hadn't seen it yet. So, my search for knowledge goes on!
Thanks for all the comments.

 

Von Mindens blown motor is a huge oddball. I was out there a few years back at got to look at it 1st hand. Tons and tons and tons of machine work, and oddities. Heads machines for more studs, block mached for more studs. the intake had extra 1/8" holes drilled everywhere it could be bolted tot he block for more clamping power. Its just crazy, but at the same time very very crude. It has some serious history to it. Somebody really put some love in it.

 

hi wyatt! everything okay!? i know how it is having small kids..not much time left! but they keep telling me it ill be better some day!
i knew i had a pic of Aarons engine! pretty cool right!
-palle

 

Thanks palle!

That is wicked!

 

Great post keep it going.

cyclone Kevin did you get those photos yet. This engine is on my list to find and build for the next project.

 

You beat me to it.....I just built a little windsor with a crank girdle added in. Wasn't much to the design, particular when I work with 2D CAD all day.

Maybe I should draw one up and get some lasercut. Just need longer ARP studs and we're away....as long as it clears the sump (I've never pulled the sump off my 322).

 

Peddro, that would be awesome! I'd love to have something like that available. It would make a 4-71 blower, like russ mentioned, real doable.

Hot Rod Ron, i've an extra one, if you want! Unless a girdle becomes available, then i would be FORCED to try a blower. Damn the luck! lol!

 

I'm with you Buddy any little 1%ers are worth considering.
Great Thread, has got us all a little closer and helps carry our cause forward. I like the girdle idea as it will give folks a little more confidence to make changes and take extra risks engine wise.

I have never seen the data stuff so I'd appreciate a copy sometime and similarly with the girdle from Pedro if he has the time.

 

LOL, well, I just saw 'em, that's all I'm say'n!

 

Flynbrian48, don't tease us, give us some useful info! Therre's a lot of good stuff here, love to hear more.

Russ, i sent you an email.

 

Well, now I'm wishing I hadn't had to dump a spare block I had stored at a mate's when he moved house!

Either way, I'll see if I can get my engine up on a stand, spin it over, pop the sump and get some measurements sorted so I can draw it up.

 

Great idea Peddro, I am sure all the guys will appreciate your effort.

 

A friend of mine sent me this info, I suppose some of you would be aware of it already, but as I am usually the last to know anything at home here it is.

The ability of U.S. car enthusiasts to satisfy their need for speed changed dramatically in the late 1940s as car-crazy veterans returned home from World War II with formal mechanical training, courtesy of Uncle Sam. This is the story of how one such veteran, an ex–B-17 airman named Alex Xydias, established the SO-CAL Speed Shop and helped transform hot rodding from a scruffy, underground, outlaw sport into a defining part of postwar American culture.


More details

So-Cal Speed Shop: The Fast Tale of the California Racers Who Made Hot Rod History
By Mark Christensen, Tony Thacker
Contributor Tony Thacker
Edition: illustrated
Published by MotorBooks/MBI Publishing Company, 2005
ISBN 0760322635, 9780760322635
192 pages.

And then;

Read what I believe to be a quote from pages 53/54/55. It's a preview of a So Cal book..
This section deals with the famous Ak Miller & his use of Caddys.
Precis:
- he ran 'em on the street in a 32 Ford
- used Caddy motors, in the 40's considered worthless as valve jobs
difficult when they started to smoke
- he ran a twin deuce manifold & with 2.87 in the rear & a Colombia
overdrive, relying on the big bottom end torque, ran 128 mph.
- seems that 4,500 was the best they could pull
But.. hears the cool news, to improve on this top end..
- Winfield ground him a cam that idled OK ( text mentions 700 rpm as a build
trget) but revved out to 5,500, perhaps even 6,000!

So.. there is hope.. The cam you had ground, any projections for its
operating rpm range ?

With revs like that a girdle would come in handy.

 

Russ, damn that's good!

Mine actually is a winfield grind, so i'm going to pass this along and see about the grind. I doubt that this is the same grind, because i'm guessing( just a guess) that this was a solid cam. But i can damn sure find out.

I know that there a few people working on solid lifters, and i dont think it should be a big deal to do. I think i can take the bodies, and do them similar to the old ford lifters. If none show up on the market in the next month, i'm going to try it.

There is a lot of talk, valid talk, about the weak bottem end. I truly believe that with dual intake and exhaust, solid cam, balanced motor, shaved heads, relief work for the valves, etc., that the engine should be able to push 250-300 hp. Do i think it will stay together long if it's pushed hard? No! I do believe that big gains are possible though.

I think it goes back to what you guys have been saying about efficiency, and small gains.

This is good, what else is there?

 

If you can draw it I can burn it out and put breaks in it if need be.

 

What a thread never had one this interesting before.
And no BS as well.

 

Wow!

Good info here. First, we talked of the available mods, and what could be done.
Then the weaknesses, mainly the bottem end.

Then the part i love. This motor is over 60 years old, and not a lot had been done with it in the whole big scheme of things. Peddro basically says" no problem, i can design that! "InDaShop says " i can build that!"

in a few post, we were able to identify the weakness, address it, and came up with a plan to overcome it. Only on the hamb.

Peddro, InDaShop, if you guys go forward with this, any idea on what a timeframe might be? Are you going to make some available to your fellow hambers? Lol! Sounds like begging, huh?

Russ, not to disagree with you, but you've had some pretty damn good threads! Two that come to mind are your timing cover build, and your shock thread.Keep up the good work, we all appreciate it!

 

Depends on the complexity, but if I've got a CAD file, I can burn it out.
I'm CAD 'tarded, so you wont see me figuring one out.

As far as doing them, availability, selling etc... No idea, I have a more than full time job, and a very loaded race schedule. So anything I do extra isnt fast, but if I do one, I'll do ten. As its not worth the hassle for one alone.

 

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Cadillac flatheads, you wouldn't believe how massive the crankshafts are in these things. Have you ever seen a crankshaft that had counter weights BOLTED ON? When I first tore mine down I did a double take, hadn't ever seen anything like it before, but I suppose there are other cranks done the same way. Mine is just a .020 overbore with Edmunds heads and intake, stock cam and pistons.

 

And then its starts making sense, how these things weigh 900lbs.

 

Very interesting thread here!

One thing you want to keep in mind when talking about RPM's, is that you don't need to wind
this up like a SBC/SBF. It is going to produce peak torque at far less than 6k, and my guess is that going over 5k would not gain HP, but probably loose HP.

About the stock rods, why not due what the "Ole Flathead" guys did back in the 40's and 50's..................box the stock rods with steel plate. I have no idea what the rod journals are, but since the stroke is close to that of a flathead V8, use the C.A.T. H beam rod and grind the journals down to match. Pistons could be made by any number of people, but Ross would probably get my vote since they will make them in different bore sizes, pin heights and ring combinations..............unless you already have some.

I thought the motor had three main bearings..............correct?

If you are talking bottom end girdle, I have never seen the inside bottom end of a Cadillac) but assume it is quite similar to a flathead V8. If that is the case a flat type bottom end
girdle like used on OHV motors will not work. You need to tie the girdle to the pan rails (the
material needs to be pretty beefy), then tie each side together by going over the center main...........or all three mains. Not that difficult, but the motor would have to line bored and you would need to make steel main caps that would be perfectly flat and of sufficent size to hold the crank from whipping....................that's what the girdle is for.

Take a look at this one for my flathead blower motor.

I think since the flathead V8 is similar to the Cadillac motor there would be alot of common
areas that could be addressed in the same way, porting the bowl directly under the valve, putting larger valves in, scultping the valve guides, relieving the block, etc.

IMHO

 

38 Flattie, On the subject of better rear oil seal, there is a trick.Is your motor a 37 or 38? What you do, is make your rear main bearing/rear cap like a latter model. Not sure what year they changed (at work now, paper work at home) but the newer rears had a larger oil drain to sump area. Easy to do with motor apart. PM me and I will scan the info and e-mail it to you
Tom

 

Just because Ebbsspeed asked, Yes my Plymouth PB four cylinder has bolt on counter weights.