First, I have ALWAYS been a fan of these old front engine drag cars. Now, I want to build a traditional car to get some experience and have some damn good fun in, but have a few questions. First, it seems like these are not exactly legal at most tracks, true? Is this why events like The HAMB drags and such are around, so these old drag cars can run? I'm not much of a "rich man" (let alone only 20) so I can't make huge trips a lot, my local track would probably not let me run this style car, right? Second, where can I read up on the rules? Is it based on weight to cubic inches, or tire size, or motor or???? I wanted to build a traditional rod, but these are far too bad *** to p*** up! (edit: found the official site for the HA/GR info, no need to answer this!) Third, where do I get started?!?!? Do they HAVE to be powered by vintage motors, or would something mid 70's or a little earlier be suitable? Earlier the cooler I know! But once again the money comes into play! (edit: same as last edit, except maybe some opinions on what to run that is buildable at the house, with not a LOT of knowledge (if any) on these old motors. Reading will be done of course) Fourth, forums or reading material on these cars or similar cars, other than the HAMB? I'd like to thanks ahead of time, as I will gladly take any and all information, and soak it all up! These things are far too cool!
I'll try to sort of answer a few of your questions. As for the legality of the cars, it depends on who is doing the tech as it seems like some places have no problems with the cars and some, like here in the Peoples Republic of California seem to feel that they need to meet much higher standards of certification. The rules are listed in this forum and cover most of it. Pretty specific on vintage engines, flathead V8s and Inlines from '62 or earlier, manual transmissions and period carburetion. I won't go into the debate over four barrel carbs as that seems to be a basket of snakes that has been beaten to death already. Weight of the car is what ever you make it, and pounds per cubic inch follows that. The tires are limited to a 6" wide treaded bias-ply on the rear and the engine size is pretty much what you build. Be creative and have fun and the rest will come along with it. Our personal build is slowly coming together, and will be an attempt at having the most fun we can squeeze out of the oddest pile of vintage parts. The build thread for it is at this link. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=189651 Hope that this helps.......the best advice I can give you is if you want to build one, go for it.
Welcome aboard, this thing can be a bucket of fun. A good deal of expense savings may be had in doing the work yourself. If you can design, engineer and fabricate you can do it as cheaply as it can be done (ever built a push cart?). These aspects aren't nearly as daunting as they might seem at first blush, most respond well to simple common sense and if you need to learn'em this is a good project to do that on. Also you'll find that getting together with at least one buddy will make it far more fun, and seriously help your project survive those inevitable slow periods. There'll likely be one or more older types willing to lend a hand with both advice and parts chasing as well, just because it's something they remember fondly. You'll note that the main theme of this cl*** is "in the spirit". Several of the builders are using more recent equipment as long as it is an accurate match for something from the period. One example would be a newer "five (freeze) plug" slant six, these exactly match the older (harder to find) "three plug" version. A still later model with a newer factory head design and hydraulic lifters however, would be cheating (even though working over the earlier head is just fine). A gearbox is pretty much a gearbox, as is a rear end, so subs***utions there are reasonable enough. To further this example, you could get a later slant six, gearbox and rear end free from someone pulling'em to cram in a big block & heavy rear (a fairly common thing these days). Pull an earlier head, solid cam and lifters from a junker, put it together and have something identical to the earlier version. These concepts can be applied to several makes/models of drive train that were manufactured on past '62, just needs a bit of research. As for venues for the cl***. Like anything new, these will have to be built up. There are several places where they're already going well and there'll certainly be more to come. Racing tracks are businesses. A local track used by local people most of the time will often be more open to innovative things than a high profile one that runs only big meets. They will however, respond better to "here's what I'm doing and here's what it already is" than to "hey, how 'bout this idea", so approach'em with facts and proof instead of wishful thinking. Remember, they want to know what's in it for them. That's just the nature of business. And most of all, have fun.
Let me throw in my .02. I have two local tracks that I have run test/tune on and have had no problem. I ran my car in Reynolds, Ga. for the "Run What Ya Brung" meet this past year and had no problem p***ing tech. If you build it within the parameters set up in the rules, you should have no problem unless you plan on going to California. As far as pre 62 motors, there should be a pile of them in a junkyard somewhere close to you. As previously stated, later model trannies and rears are allowed, as long as the car looks to be in the spirit.
I believe I have a buddy or two here that would help me, one actually from the HAMB who does vintage racing with his MG. I had a plan to build my truck but I think I may just get it in solid condition and throw a hitch on it. I'm thinking it could pull a small trailer with this style car on it just fine. The track isn't far from here anyways. I have never run a car at the track, but have done my share of street racing. Not near fast enough to be noticed at the track, that's my goal here. Build a super cool, decently quick (13's??), car that others may just build to compete with me. I'd love to build a flattie, but money won't allow that. Are there any particular cars to look for motors out of, I know the biscayne small 6's don't put down too much power, and don't believe much can be done for them. Though I may be wrong here? I don't know much about what was available back then, and that is why I want to do this as well, aside from the racing, is to learn more about what was done back then. Thanks for all the help so far.
Don't worry about the lack of power available from the older inlines or even a mild flathead V8, there have been some pretty good runs by basic stock engines, and it lets you build and get things sorted before building your "race motor". The name of the game is pounds per horsepower, and if you build a light car it will perform well. Our planned powerplant is a 1934 Dodge flathead 6 with a whopping 218 cu in displacement. Going to freshen up the internals, get a camshaft ground and do some mild porting, hang a couple of 1 3/4" SU carbs on it on a homebuilt intake, some old style weedburner pipes, and go racing. The ch***is is being home built from some Model T rails found at a swap meet and at this moment with frame, front axle, steering box, engine and trans, we have a grand total of $110.00 into the project. It ain't "rocket science", and with a bit of looking around at other builds and some old style parts scrounging, and some creative thought on your own, you should be able to build on a budget and have a lot of fun for your investment.
Go to a book seller like Amazon or Barnes and Noble and get a Book called California Bill's Chevrolet, GMC and Buick Speed Manual 1954 edition. It is dated but you should be able to update some of the things such as valves and porting. Get yourself a 1958 or 1959 260cu.in. Chevrolet truck engine. Rebuild it with new pistons with more compression and as big a cam as can be reground on your old cam. Send the rocker arms and lifters to Rocker arm Spe******t in Anderson Cal. Do some port matching, get a three one barrel carb manifold from Patrick's in Arizonia and build some headers. All this should be the cheap way to go and you should be in the 12.00's with a 1500 lb car. I know that a GMC will be a little better choice but I'm finding out it is more expensive. In Mississippi you should have some junk yards that still have old Chev trucks in them and check the Hemming's. I have an extra 270 GMC engine but I can tell you it will be more expensive than the Chevrolet. Roy
Learn how to drag race with manual transmission before you worry about power. Put it together stock and get some seat time. My team mate can consistantly make our car go a second to a second and a half quicker than I can. HA/GR is a game of skill. It's been proven. On any given day, a slower car can win if it's in the hands of the right driver.
Case in point, the winner at the HAMB drags had a car that was one second slower than the one he beat. Or should I say, the faster car beat himself. I started out with a stock engine the first year and had a blast. I am now building a motor that should be real compe***ive with the rest of the field.
Heres some pictures of the HA/GR my partners and I are building. The blue stripes are actually just masking tape to shape the scallops that will be painted soon. The lack of front suspension is a personal preference to save weight. Roy, I also included a picture of the roller rocker arms I've built for the GMC. See you next week. Ron
Is that a custom cut setup? I am getting really really interested in this,just need to get the truck running and I can get started.
By the way, all these old motors can be expensive to build, so don't count out the Ford Flathead V8 for that reason.
Yah, I was thinking a y-block but I believe I may look into the 261. Seems like it has a good bit of parts available for it. Looking for pics and info on the HAMB and google now.
the 261 can be identifted by the captain bars next to the distributor and another set about halfway on the intake side . you could go to your local libary for those books 348 mentioned if they dont have them they check other libarys and order them for you at no charge
You mentioned a Y block which is a overhead V-8 and those are not allowed in this cl*** although they should be because a good flathead will blow it away. Anyway no overhead valve v-8's allowed in this cl***. Just inline 6 or inline 8 or a flathead all pre 1962 at least that is how I read the rules. As has been said build it and have fun. Roy
I thought y-blocks were pre 62? Mid/Late 50 T-birds used them, did they not? 57's did I believe.... I'm not going to ask for rules to be changed, I just read it as all pre 62 motors were allowed. If not, I will look elsewhere for an engine, I just thought it may be an option. All is well if not, I kinda dig the straight 6's now after seeing quite a few pictures.
HA/GR rules can be found here. Flathead V8s or inlines pre '62. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185309&highlight=HA%2FGR+rules
I misread the engine rule, my fault. As I said earlier, I'm not trying to change rules just trying to figure out a build plan! Thanks a lot so far guys.
Sounds like you may not understand the difference between a flathead engine and an over-head valve design. The Ford Y-block, Chevy smallblock, Cadillac, Olds, and many, many more overhead valve, V8 engines were built before 1962. The only type of V8 allowed in the HA/GR cl*** is of the flat head (valve-in-block) design.
Grant, Welcome to the world of HAMBster dragsters. Before you decide on an engine, you should take a realistic look at how fast you want to go and what your budget will be. Any kind of flathead engine will limit your horsepower due to an upper limit on the compression ratio and the fact they won't have very good intake port flow. Those 2 factors alone will limit the final power. A GOOD Ford flathead will only make about 200 HP. A smaller flathead inline 6 will make less power. You also need to consider the maximum bore size on overhead valve inline engines because most of the older engines (pre 62) are generally small bore, long stroke designs. That limits the valve sizes, which limits the cylinder heads ability to flow enough to make serious power. I selected the 302 cubic inch GMC since it is an overhead design with a large bore and moderate stroke (4" bore & 4" stroke) With a final bore of 4.125" the engine will end up at 321 cubic inches. Even this engine has several things working against it from a hi-po standpoint: long, wide and heavy rods and a piston that weighs a ton. Simease intake and exhaust ports, etc. I'm having to get other rods, custom pistons, roller rocker arms, etc so the engine will live at rpm and make enough power to go fast. Therefore, the engine is very expensive to build. But, it should make some serious power and stay together. (Fingers crossed). I think if I had it to do over I would use the 261 Chevy truck engine, make it bullet-proof with good parts, do some serious porting and turn it about 7500 rpm to get the power I need. Even then it wouldn't be cheap. I think you'll find all the guys here will help you in any way they can. All of us just want to do a little racing and have a good time. Ron
While I was going to look deeper into a buick straight 8...I think the 261 is the engine I need. I have heard a lot of good about them, just saying they are solid little motors built right. Finding one may be a problem though. I like the idea of a somewhat newer 4 speed behind it as well which seems to be an easy doing.
7of these cars will be running this sat at the old time drags inTULSA OK gates open at 11 their will be 4 FH 1 GMC 1 261 1 slant 6 see them live in person beeeee thereeeeeee Get your buddies an drive up here www.tulsaraceway.com
I really wish I could mudflap, but with gas the way it is, I am not making it out of the state until new years to go back home to orlando for a vacation! I would love to catch some races though, maybe next year.
The Jalopy Journal
