Can you build a hot rod without a dial indicator?

I don't want to start a food fight. It just seems to me that the internet has got us so tied up in technicalities that it isn't as much fun as it used to be.

I know I'm a dinosaur. I'm just wondering if there are other dinosaurs that think some of this technical over engineering stuff is just plain silly... like me.

I get a kick out of the guys that fret so much about the jet sizes in thier 97s on their flatmotors. Like it could mean a tenth in the quarter and the difference between winning and being an also ran.

The post about having your axle straightened after the brackets are welded just got me to thinking if there are anyone else on here that thinks that is overkill (provided that precautions were taken when welding).

I know that lots of the back yard builders from my era aren't computer geeks so the sampling will be skewed toward the techno-freak side. I expect that.

More and more I feel like the hobby has passed me by. All the machinist types are giving me an inferiority complex. The safety nazis are making me feel like I'm endangering the human race.

Any more of the "middle of the roaders" out there? Where common sense along with fun, build cars to play with and not fret over?

I keep wanting to say lighten up...it's a hot rod not the space shuttle but I've kept quiet so far.

I'm not anti-technical or anti-safety. I am into common sense.

If noone else gets my point then I'll just go take some Geritol and a nap.

 

Well...I'm a machinist, but I think some of this stuff is ridiculous. I like to see well engineered and executed ideas, but I agree about the overkill. Seems like it was easier to build a car when everyone was sorta stupid and unsafe.

 

I've done fairly well with the "OLD TAPE measure and LEVEL" ...!

Some folks have access to or own CMM's, Optical comparators, Laser Interferometers... and love to play with them...!

Kind of like when I got my first "Saws-All"... hardly used the hacksaw from that point on...!

 

I AM stupid. And unsafe. Oh wait, were we talking about cars?

 

I'm pretty primitive, I still use a stick welder, tape measure and eyeball most things up, I heard about a square but never did see one I do have access to a level but I don't got a level surface to start with

 

without a dial indicated NO WAY... but you can do without a micrometer.... LOL

 

Hey Tommy, I wholeheartedly agree. I think a car built with common sense ideas need not be a techno wonder. It seems to me that this could be part of the reason it takes some people so long to get a car built and on the road. As long as it's safe, I see no problem with "eyeball engineering", as long as you can read a tape and a level you should be good to go. Like my Grandpa used to say, "This ain't rocket science". Have Fun

 

Well Tommy, I can say your not alone on this matter. I like to build & play with cars becuase it fun! I got my ass chewed by some of my friends because when I welded up my rear kick up it was off by a eighth of an inch. They even went so far as to tell me It would never drive straight and will cause major problems with alignment issues! Bowlshit! I don`t have a steel plate jig, I do have a resonably level concrete floor & a tape measure! They been watching too much T.V.! Some of these guys couldn`t change their oil if they had all the tools & lifts in the world! Don`t get me wrong, I think you should do the best you can, but come on, its just a car! Have fun!

 

I'm with you Tommy. For us DIY guys, once basic safety and functionality are addressed, proportion and originality always trump micro-detail.

Now if you're a Steve Moal, and you've got a King Farouk for a client, give him all the detail he wants. But that doesn't apply to us. Does it?

 

That`s funny becuase there`s a shop here in town with that very name!

 

It's amazing how many 'experts' you can find to tell you how 'wrong' everything you do is, too! I prefer just to build my shit my way and drive it...I'm out there cruising and enjoying my heaps while the armchair engineers sit around and tell each other how unsafe, impractical or completely WRONG my shit is!

Fuck 'em...it keeps them off the road and outta my way!

 

I was thinking the same thing when I read the axle bracket post Tommy. Not to rag on the poster, but with a little common sense with the heat,shouldnt be a problem. Build your cars with whatever methods you like. I don't have a dial indicator,but do find a vernier caliper comes in handy for lathe work. The rocket scientists can use thier slide-rules.Sparky

 

I think a lot of the need for accuracy is based on a lack of understanding.
There seems to be a deficit in practical knowledge these days.

If everybody who welded in a front crossmember understood simple Caster
and spring bind we would all be safer. If you understand the principle behind
Ackerman, it is easy to accomodate in your design.

I do my best to get things as perfect as possible, but don't plan to re-do if it
comes out a bit off. Odds are nothing important is going to fall off.

I also subscribe to what Bob Wilson calls "Belt AND Suspenders" design
your parts so they have more than one failsafe and you should be fine.

Bottom line, if you kow what you are doing and understand how it needs to
perform, you can build it safe and sturdy.

PS: How many people cans still read a vernier scale instead of the digital
or dial readout?

 

I agree that some people make things too complicated. A guy I work with thinks I should put a late model 302 EFI engine into my old Fairlane. Granted it would run great, actually better mechanically than a 289. And I don't knock anyone who does that.

However I already have a daily driver that's too complicated for me to work on. Why should my fun car also need to be taken to a professional shop for anything more involved than an oil change?

The truth is that with the horsepower wars we're seeing these days very few traditional cars will out perform a late model performance car. My brother drives a 2005 GTO and its really too fast for the street. I mean there's no place in our area to even get close to top speed. If he tried getting top speed on the street -- he outta be arrested.

My apologies to those who drive supercharged T buckets and similiar scary-fast cars. You really are quicker than the late models.

Have fun.

 

I think I still can, but I can't see the markings without a magnifying glass.


Anyhoo, I don't think I've used a dial indicator on my 31 on 32 rails roadster so far.
Granted, I did have a frame table borrowed for the speed shop, but that was more of a convenience than anything.
Plus, the speed shop owner got it stored indoors for the winter.

I've made a lot of things for it on the lathe, but that's cuz I got one.
Most of the projects I've posted could be done by a thinking guy with drill press, hacksaw and file.
Used to do it that way so the lathe is a big luxury/convenience for me.

No lathe = a helluva collection of files.

Looking forward, I think the only time I'll have to use a dial indicator is when I degree the cam in.
And if necessary the dial indicator could be skipped and a simple fixture along with using a feeler gauge would do it.

Couldn't do without the degree wheel though.
If nothing else, they look cool hanging on the pegboard next to all the piston stops....

 

Funny topic at work I have two guys I talk to about my car, one is a scca driver and the other's dad is a farmer. Ask the scca guy and absolutley you must have a dial indicator, $1000 brembo brakes, and a surgery room to do an oil change. Ask the farmer, and hell you can pull an engine, rebuild it and throw it back in all under an oak tree. I am some where in the middle, I built a daily driver sbc, not a 7000 rpm 400hp 305, and it also isn't a 1500 rpm stump puller. I like to bounce questions off both guys, as I get good info from both just from two different spectrums.

 

Yeah we have one too. It's a big diesel truck frame shop!

Most people don't realize that brand new cars can be off on the frame measurements as far as 1/4". And that is totally acceptable. I have seen it a million times being in the autobody business.

 

Wow, talk about making the new guy feel great. yeah, I asked the question about the axles, it's my first shot at it and I spent a shitload on a rear I don't wanna fuck up, so I was asking they guys who seem to know, hard to learn if you don't ask questions. I asked because I have had a couple of serious hot rod builders tell me to get them straightened afterwards, and I just wanted to get some sort of confirmation on the whole deal, I certainly would rather not tear it down and do it, seems like a waste. carry on.

on another note, when I have access to alot of intelligent hot-rod folks, no sense in not asking, especially when you consider putting your life, family and money into such a project for the first time around.

 

i was talking about this with my brother. we where saying how much faster it was to put a car together when we knew nothing.

Now it takes me much longer because I dont want parts that are an eith inch off. I dont want a car that has 2 diffrent legnth wishbones. I dont want to have to shim the crap out of every thing to fit.

If you look at a car that is built by the guy who measures every thing and one built by Mr wing it there is no comparing the 2 even if they are built in the same style.

 

Yesterday I lost my angle finder but I eyeballed the front crossmember into my A frame anyway. In the auto industry we have a gauge at the end of the line to check final dimensions and it's not uncommon to see engineers adjusting the GAUGE to fit the PART. It's supposed to be the other way around, but I figure if these professionals can do it to brand new cars then why can't I do it to my old hunk of shit.

Actually, around here I'm afraid to admit half the shit I cobble up ...I'm glad other people feel the same

 

I agree with you. The manufacturing of stuff is technical. Unless you are doing the machine work in the shop boring and grinding. The subsequent bolting stuff on is not technical. People that don't know dittly do it all the time with good results. The most technical stuff on most motors is the torqueing of the rod-bolts and the head-bolts, and some people don't even do that, considering the worst thing about it is 'uneven' torque, or 'over' torque. I know people that over-torque flywheel bolts all the time, with apparently good results. Of course the more power a motor generates, the more critical that would be. That's the reason for scatter-shields and drive-shaft loops!
Jet size in a carburetor like a 94 or a 97 is only relative to the air density/altitude you're running it at, with overlap possible all the way from sea level to the top of the mountains. Most came from the factory with mid-size jets to start with, and they'll run all over the country, but lose power at higher altitudes. So if somebody changed the jet because he lived in Aspen and didn't drive to Kansas, then it'll run kind of crappy way down in Death Valley. All of this, because the fuel metering is accomplished by the venturi sensing the air flow. A '97 don't sense the density, just the flow.

As for the welding on axle tube, people that don't understand start putting crap in the game, mislead by OP that put crap in the game. I merely run a bead approximately the same length on the opposite side of the structural weld, because the warp is(mostly) compensated for. Prove this to yourself by welding a bead half way around a pipe. Then run a bead all the way around another pipe, and compare the two. Maybe someday in the distant future the wheel bearing might fail if the alignment is hell-and-gone out of being straight, or, if for some reason I forgot to eyeball it. I can tell a misaligned wheel bearing boss when I go to put the axle in. Most of the "straightening" after welding is definately overkill, touted by a shop manager that is doing the welding to generate more labor, like cutting the back-plate flanges off and re-welding the entire bearing carrier back on. Like Boyd's (TV) shop foreman would spout(do they actually have a real-live-functioning shop?),,,, which in my opinion is because they either don't know dittly, or worse yet, it's designed to run the bill up.

A good brick layer don't need a laser level to keep the wall straight, so a laser level for a good bricklayer would be overkill. He would spend the money on beer. His wife might be misled into buying him the laser for his birthday.

Like, 'ya-know, give a kid a tool-box and he thinks he's a mechanic...........

 

I couldn't agree more. LOGIC should rule all.

 

The only stupid question is the one not asked! You did what I would have done if I had spent a ton of cash on a quickey! I think Tommy was just bringing up a subject that TOO MUCH engineering is being done on cars & parts that are not that complicated.

 

several years ago when a friend was welding a door car frame for me we were off on ,what i thought was a critical measurement. next day i called one of the magazine shops, told them and they said'' hell thats great, whatcha think rod ends are for.'' since then eyeball has been mostly good enough.

 

Another issue that gets a lot of coverage, but is mostly bullshit, is that neat-knicking of a work area don't assure quality of product. The saying, "a clean shop indicates the quality of the work", was made up by a neat-freak, not a technician. I like to keep my work area organized, but mostly so I know where it's all at. Ask me for a particular wrench, and I can open the right drawer and get it with my eyes closed.

But, in my 40some years mechanic'n I have never been able to judge the quality of work a mechanic can do by the look of his work area. One of the best mechanics I know lives in a trashy house and throws his trash on the floor. There is dog-crap in the corner. Tumble-weeds roll in the door on a windy sunday afternoon, and aren't removed unless they really get in the way. You might have to drag your boots through the litter to sidle up to what he's working on. BUT, you better not lay a dirty rag or set your beer can on the frame of a motor he's assembling. He knows the boundaries. He's got more work than he can handle, because old customers always come back. If you suggest to him that the dog shouldn't be allowed in the place, he'll throw your ass out.

 

Sorry It was not intended to slam you, your question or the guys that think any welding on an axle tube can create a big problem.

What struck me was that there didn't seem to be too many saying that if you take your time it's not that critical. I thought maybe it was me! So I asked my question here instead of mucking up your question.

Please ask your questions.

When it comes to safety issues, everyone has to determine that for themselves.

 

I guess it depends on the builder/owner. I know a guy that narrowed a rearend for a Chevelle and has to knock the axle into the carrier with a hammer. I couldn't run it that way, but it doesn't bother him at all. I don't know about a dial indicator (I've got one but don't usually drag it out unless I'm setting up a rearend), but I couldn't get along without my digital calipers. I guess I'm spoiled.

One of my mottos is "Do it the BEST you can and hope it's good enough."

 

Three step process:
1. Measure with micrometer.
2. Mark with chalk
3. Cut with ax

 

I think some guys are just like that. I build a lot of furniture and display cases at work and it really bugs me if something is not "just right". I'm building a table right now and it makes me happy to stick a square to a joint and see that it's dead on, even though I know it's going in a 200 year old historical site where theer isn't a flat level spot on the whole floor, so I'm going to have to level the thing when it goes in.

It just bugs me when something is off, even though I know that it makes no difference in the end and no one will know it but me.