if they are just gonna drop off a huge project and not going to pitch in then I wouldn't do it for free if they are gonna help and its kind of an off duty project and they help you in the same way for something they have to offer that you aren't good at for the same rate then thats different and I'd not charge them but then again I wouldn't have much ambition to do something after hours that I did all day long either
Here's my $0.02 worth..being in business for myself ,I learned quickly that "friends" will come out of the woodwork ,so to speak, expecting you to do the job on the cheap,then disappear .Never to be seen again ,til they need another freebie. So ,for my real friends ,family ,and good people that deserve a break , I make it a policy to have a COMPLETE understanding ,BEFORE I start ,at what $ rate & timeline that it'll take to do their job. I then can base my rates and completion schedule on the basis of their past history as to how they have figure in my life ( business & personal). I avoid at all costs ,any type of vague arrangements..."It won't be too much , I'll treat ya right, let me see what I can do.." etc. I've found that if you cover everything BEFORE starting ,then everyone is on the same page. I've headed off a lot of problems when they say ..."I've got a car I need you to work on.." by saying "Great , I was needing some more money this month anyhow ....now this is how I work... I'm Good ,Slow , and Expensive !!! " This tends to quickly weed out the bums & freeloaders. Those types not real friends anyhow , they are just trying to go thru life without paying for anything... I'm gettin' down off my soapbox now..... Stan
Someone (above) mentioned the car "flipping". That is a perfect example of what will happen. Dad restored a **insert musclecar here** for my brothers friend. Dad gave him a really good deal, and the friend even came by and lent a hand - all buddy-buddy and stuff, buying the beer every week and doing the legwork....When it was all said and done dad got paid in the neighborhood of 3k to take a $500 car from a pile of rusty parts to a near perfect classic. He still owed dad over $1,200 bucks. He drove it a handful of times. Now he wants to flip it for whatever the market value is (around 30k). And he is still a friend - that has never changed, my brother grew up with the guy. In fact bro works with the guy and goes to the bars with him all of the time. That's not even the worst part of it. He can't wait to get dad to help him on his next car - because dad is so good, of course - at least that is what he tells him every time he comes over to the house. So he basically sees a way for himself to make money on these deals. Unbelieveable. It's not that he is a jerk or a scammer. He is just playing the "friend" card, and feels no guilt whatsoever.... needless to say, friend or not, you need to make a living too.
I think friends should pay your regular price AND give you a healthy tip on top of it, just because they are your friend and they want you to make a good and fair living. Real friends shouldn't want their friends to be or live like their slaves. Why do people brag about how much they paid for their jewelery, clothes, shoes, furniture and house, and brag about how little they paid to buy their car or get it fixed? Did you ever notice the ones who got the "best deal" on their paint job are also the ones who are first to publicly nit-pick it to death and want it repainted for free because one friggin gnat landed on the trunk, and they can still see a (imaginary) blur where it was rubbed out? When I was a kid my mechanic Dad usta tell people "All my tools are at the shop, It's a Cadillac, Oldsmobile and Ferarri dealer, so if you drive one of them, just bring it in and have one of the service advisors write you up and it will get the best of service." Painters don't carry hammers because if they did they would have to do carpentry, probably for free, before doing the painting. Just don't have any tools at home! or give everyone the same "discount".... Ever notice how stores have a "20% discount sale" the day after raising all their prices 25%?
There's a lot of wisdom on both sides of this coin. I've done a lot of work for my dad and charged him for it. Since it was family I was just going to do a you help me out I'll help you out deal where he just pitched me a few bucks. Insted of that He made me write out a full repair order, diagnostic report, buy parts and include them in the ticket etc. All for peanuts. Not worth my time. Too much of a pain in the ass but I did it anyway because it's family and he needed his car(s) fixed. I also did some work on a friend's van. EGR valve was sticking. The part alone was 57 bucks. I tinkered with it and cleaned it till it was better. He didn't even need to buy a part. Total cost of repair $0.00. A few weeks later I had to quit my job to stay in school and I was flat broke and hungry. I never griped, bitched, etc. He came over one day and saw I had nothing to eat. Next day he sorta showed up with over 75 bucks worth of groceries.
I say charge them because it seem when you dont. For the most part they dont really appreciate what youve done for them
i have friend that is an journey man electrican. i had him rewire my garage for me. the thing is i told him that i would do all the grunt work and buy all materials. he told me i had to dig a 4' deep ditch 30' long. from the house to the garage. so i did it several hrs a day for a week. then he gave me a list of materials i needed. so i made a trip to home depot and bought everything $500. so i had to fish the wires, dig the ditch, crawl under the house, connect all the pipes. i had him do what i couldn't do. which only took him a day to do. he bent the conduit, install the sub-panel and connect 4 outlets. to make everything look professional. i swapped the work for some welding on his car and took him and his girl out out for an expensive meal. so to answer your question. no i wouldn't want him to come here and do something for free.
Business is Business....period. My GOOD friend that is a Custom Home Builder did not discount my new house and shop, and frankly, I never even excpected him to. Your friend should not expect it either. Charge them the going rates.
I have a couple friends who are really skilled at what they do. When I get them to work for me, I have to damn near force them to take money. I always say I'll pay anything they want. And it's hard to get a bill out of them. I'd do anything to help those guys but they apparently never need help. If you want your friends to pay you for a job make sure they have a bill in their hands with a definite number on it.
I would rather put money in a friends pocket than put it in a stranges pocket. We are getting ready to have new guttering installed on the house. Who do I call? An old friend from way back.
also how can i do this on my off hr. if i have to do this all day long. damn i'll never see my family. it's bad enough i don't have time to work on my own car let alone do everyone else car. my car has been on a body jig for almost a year with the frame off waiting for me to get some time to work on it. the only time i do, do it after work is when i'm really into the project. THAT IS SO TRUE
i would rather pay a friend to do a job for me than a stranger. i know he would take his time to do it right the first time.
This is gonna sound real damn corny, but......the Golden Rule applies(to damn near any situation) Treat your friends like you'd want them to treat you. You wouldn't want to get gouged by a friend, so you don't gouge him.....but you don't do it for nothing either, cause you wouldn't expect him to. If there's a reciprocal agreement and you get shorted, you 1) learn a lesson about friendship and 2) never feel obligated to do anything for that person again. Dante, sounds like you need to hire some help, bud
I agree with most of what has been said, but I hope everyone keeps focused on the REAL issue. That being, you are talking about your livelihood. I don't see how you can divorce doing that work for a customer, charging one rate, and charging another rate to someone else. if your doing inferior work for the friend while charging him less, shame on you. You'll be judged more harshly for the work you do for friends, I guarantee it. so why do less than your best. If your doing your best, then make as much as you do for civilians. I can tell you from first hand experience you'll NEVER get back the same consideration when it comes time for your "friends" to step up to the plate and help you (if in deed they even give you a hand). Your friends only want you to work on their cars because they like what you do. If they liked someone elses work better chances are that's who would be doing their work. I'll tell you this, and you can take it to the bank, as soon as you work for anyone, friend or not, for less than your normal rate the word will get out and even regular customers will expect the same rate. That's the way life is, people can't keep from telling everyone about the "good deal" they got. Bottom line, it's best not to work for friends unless you do it for free, expecting nothing in return.It's the very best way to find out how many "real" friends you have. And you'll find out just as soon as you need them to return the favor. Frank
As posted in my office. Feel free to use it I do not know who to give credit for it but it has served me very, very well over the years. "Friends are Friends, Family is Family BUT Business is Business... Period." Another one is "I am not a bank, I am not the United Way, I do not and can not work for free" I do provide a good read generous discount for "Friends" and for "Family" basically a jobber style rate. They know my hourly rates for the most part and what I get from "real" business work so they understand I am shorting myself to help them out. Hell I have to pay standard rates at jobber to my Dad when I buy parts form him. I didn't understand 25 years ago, but I sure as hell do now. As my grandfather used to say the monkey don't dance till you pay the organ grinder. And I do some things for free when I can justify it and I also feel you should give a little back so few percentage points of my time go to a charity of sorts. If someone is down and out or a young person trying to get started needs help those are the ones I help out for free. It seems they are the most appreciative people you ever meet. I tell them to do something good they can do well for someone else to pay me back. Kind of a pay it forward deal.
I was communications maintenance in the USAF. People were constantly asking if I could fix TVs, CBs, Computers, etc. For a long time I had trouble saying no, even though I didn't really want to work on the crap. I finally discovered a stategy that worked. I told them I could fix anything they had, but charged the same as the guy down town and took twice as long.
I have an idea. Charge your friends time and a half what you normally charge because you know that somehow its going to be a pain in the ass and have them pay up front. See how that goes >
you don't have any friends man. . . we're all just hanging around to get freebies! I have to say though. . . it is sad to see your cars sit while you churn out smooth car after smooth car for other people.
If they seek you out because they know you will do it right, they shouldn't have a problem with full price. If they seek you out to save a buck, you are the one who ends up getting screwed...and they probably get a deal. When it comes to friends or family, it's got to be full price or free. I have learned several times the hard way. If it's for your g/f, services may be payable in booty...but in my experience, I'd rather just have the cash. Booty doesn't pay the bills. I too have fallen into the trap, where you feel guilty saying no. Now, since I don't want to be bothered cause it's such a pain in the ass to work on stuff here, I just say...I don't have the room or the time...they usually understand.
Explain to them that freebies don't put food in your kids mouths, if they still whine about it kick thier ass until they give you your money. I know with my buddies I always assume I will pay for it and if they want to give it to me for free that all the better. It's rude to assume.They should't have a problem paying for good work.
"Buddies are buddies and business is business, if you understand this then you are my buddy, come on in!"
What burns me is when you "help" out a friend, spend HOURS dong shit for them, and then they wanna charge you when you need help with what they do because "it's what I do for a living" well my mill, lathe, tig welder, hydraulic bender, etc etc etc didnt just show up at my door one day I had to pay for them as I do my argon and my electricity, just because I have another job too does that make my time and "investment" worth less than my buddy who does upholstry? or my buddy who does body work? or another "buddy" who doesnt do anything?????? I thought friends helped friends with their cars, but a couple of my "Friends" have streets named after them one way
if it was that easy everybody would be doing it and body shops would go out of business. have you ever replaced a roof on a car after a roll over? i have. how about repair a Dodge Viper that smacked a fwy guard rail head on. i have. or how about sectioned a 2004 Toyota car from the firewall forward? again i have. this industry requires nothing but skill. you have some hacks then you have people that take pride in their craft. it's not as easy as spreading bondo and sanding it.
I only charge friends if they can afford it. Somebody's gonna have to take care of me when I'm old, broke, crazy and living in a bus at some antique airport...
I'm looking at it from the other side - I just paid a friend to do the bondo/primer on a car. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it can be a good way for a guy to make some extra money after hours. Probably more valuable to younger people. Price-wise, I can't afford a full-on $10-20k paint job I'd get walking into the front door of a shop. So we settled on paying him his after-tax hourly rate (which isn't much after Canadian taxes), plus I pay for materials of course. Good point on the 'flipping'. If the guy's just into it to make a buck, make sure you get a buck too. But really it comes down to what your time is worth. Friends should understand.
The Jalopy Journal
