I couldn't post on the Tech-o forum I guess because I'm a newbie or somethin'. Anyways, after scanning the Flathead Manifold & Head review post I can say I am thoroughly confused. I need advice, I have a '53 8ba and really don't want to convert to 12 volts mainly because I am an electrical idiot and am concentrating on bodywork right now. I want to drive the thing this summer and I could care less about my lighting, radio or crap like that. Everybody says the factory ignition sucks. I drove it last summer and it seemed OK to me, it even had a burnt valve. Maybe I don't care cuz it's all new to me. We are getting ready to pull the motor and do the valves and rings. My dad knows more about this stuff than I so he is helping me. Finally, the question- If I leave the factory 6 volt with factory ignition will I be sacrificing noticeable HP? We are putting on a 3 x 2 offy w/strombergs and headers. Can I leave it 6 volt and upgrade the ignition affordably? Thanks Chris
Chris, You can't post on the techomatic. Its read only. When you pull the engine to do your mechanical work, I would definitely rewire the whole car to 12 volts. It gives you more spark for ignition along with added features of better starting and brighter lights. You really need to start learning the electrical side of these cars. Its really not that difficult, especially with the new wiring kits available today. Every wire is marked and tells you exactly where to connect. Besides when you get stuck we can help you along the way. Don't be shy of learning it.You will find that working on these things is actually more fun thatn driving them. Here's some starters to give you some reading material before you decide to tear it apart. Good luck and ask when you get stuck... 12 volt conversion
I left my '35 Ford pickup 6V (+ ground) and am very satisfied with it's electrical performance (I do run a gel battery). I didn't need to run a radio/stereo (just pure flathead rumble for me) & I have had no performace issues since I don't run electronic ignition. I also like the vintage look of a generator and the sound of the 6V starter turning my flatty. As far as your flathead goes, you might want to ask around before you put a triple manifold on your motor. A dual is much more streetable and a ton easier to sync up. It is also cheeper since you don't need a progressive linkage & you only need two carbs & air cleaners. There are several good books on flatheads and quite a few guys here and on The Early V8 Club wbsite & Fordbarn.com that can help you out with which ever set up you go with. There is also a good web article on installing and setting up a dual carb manifold on www.1935pickup.com. Good luck!
Do yourself a favor and go 12 volts. The lights are better it will start better and latter when you change your mind about that radio it will be done. Also 3x2 s is an awful lot of carburation for a stock 239 cubic inch Flathead! Even with fresh rings and valves it's still stock. Some with bored and stroked Flatheads with hot cams will sheepishly admit, if pressed hard enough, that their 3x2 equipted engines look neat but are really over-carburated. The best running 3x2 on a 239 setup I've seen lately accutally runs on just the center carb and has both end carbs blocked off. The stock distributor does not work too well with multiple carbs. It has no centrifical advance only vacuum.
I'm hearing "work in progress" and "budget". Develop a plan that lets you drive the car and work on it (sounds like thats your intent)and stick to it! Set the work up in phases...use your dads good graces (cut the grass for him and buy him a beer). Get the safe shit done FIRST. Brakes, tires, tailights, headlights.....you get it. The earlier advice on the intake is right, cheaper and easier to tame with 2X. Wiring the car...inspecet everything and repair what needs doin. Save your bucks, plan your needs and re-wire when you have a plan and parts in hand. That way you suffer less downtime. Bob
You guys are killing me, my old man just picked up the 3x2 and the carbs out in Pamona so I actually already have them. DO you guys feel strongly enough that I should try and trade the 3x2 in for a 2x2 setup. Which are more valuable? Does anybody sell a kit to convert to 12 volts that contains all the little thingamajiggars I need? Thanks for the advice even though it's not exactly what I wanted to hear.
Advice is advice not always the advice that you want. From my experience you would be happier with the 2x2, but if you're stuck on (with) 3 dueces go for it. It's your ride, you can always chalk it up to the learning curve if it doesn't work out the way you want. As far as value nuthin' is worth more than someone is willing to give. You shouldn't have any trouble tradeing for a good 2x2, I really think you'll be happier in the end. I don't doubt that you can buy a kit from Speedway or one of them to convert to 12 volts, but it isn't necessary, unless the whole ride needs wireing anyway. If it were mine I would convert to 12 volts. If you want the stocker look you can stay with a generator no problem. My personal preferance is 12 volts. Better spark lights etc as has already been mentioned. Easier to find replacement pieces on the road. And this is the short list. You can figure it out, and there's plenty of help here if you get lost. Well that's my .02
Just block off the center carb (keep it on there as a dummy/replacement carb) and run it like a super dual. You'll be happier and performance will be better. You run the risk of washing those brand new rings if you run the third carb and it runs too rich. As for the 12 v thing. It isn't too expensive to have your generator rebuilt to run 12v. I'd do that, get a good dual-point dizzy (older mallorys are good but the new ones use the SBC curve and are not as nice), and rewire the car for 12v like has been suggested. It will work out better in the long run, you'll learn a lot about wiring and your car, and you'll clear up potential headaches and firestarters. Think how much peace of mind you'll have too...
OK you guys are starting to sway me. I called a local place and they will convert my generator to 12 for $60 regulator $30 -$40. So let me get this straight- I know I need to replace the lighting. I read somewhere that I will need a new wiper and heater motor but I just won't drive it in the cold and I can use rain-x if I think I might get caught in the rain (down the road I will replace them). Starter I don't have to do anything with. I am confused on the following - what do I do with my distributor? And , do I just go to Napa and ask for a voltage reducer or something like that for whatever guages I need to keep 6 volt. Am I forgetting something? What about the starter solenoid? I appreciate all your help
Chris The original dizzy will not work with Stromberg carbs. The reason for this is that he advance is taken from the vacum difference above and below the throttleplate in the carb. If you connect it to manifold vacum it will work backwards.. More info here, http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/navarro.htm and here http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_tuneup49-53_239-255.htm I know it can be adjusted to work if you use two ford holley carbs, but im not shure about three. So get a mallory dizzy and a 6Volt coil and yoy will be in business. But 12Volt is not a big deal to fix, a Volkswagen 12V generator is cheap and the pully can be adjusted with shims to fit the wide flathead belt, If you get a type 3 generator you dont have to cut of the "fan axle" I have pics on this conversion if you are interested.
Yep, you can't use the stock distributer. I'd try to find an old mallory dual point at swaps or on ebay, get new points for it and you're in business. Or go with the non-vacuum MSD, but then you'll have to run an MSD cap-discharge box too. I don't think you'll really have to change that much for 12 v. but remember you'll be going from positive ground to negative so take that into consideration. I think if you change everything else, and get a voltage drop for the gauge pannel and the heater motor (not sure if this is necessary?) you'll be in business. I'd call Haywire and describe what you're doing to them. They'll send you a fuse-box and wiring harness taylored to what you're doing and send detailed instructions along to make it a no-brainer. Give yourself a good 30 hours (took me about 20 for my shoebox but I goofed a few times due to concentration breakers) of distraction free time to do the wiring and you should be doing great.
Your wiper motor is vacumn and i run a 6 volt heater motor on my 12 volt system. Just don't run it on high. If you don't like that go to NAPA and buy a resistor.
I'm gonna try and find Haywire's # but it sounds like they are gonna be outta my price range. Any old Mallory dual point will suffice???
Been a busy day here and just turned on the PC but it looks like you finally got some info on the dizzy. If you are short on money you can still use what you have and stay with 6V. Use the 3 carb intake and put an 8BA 94 style carb in the center. Buy or make block off plates and mount the Strombergs on the ends. Dont forget to block the fuel lines! Now you can run the stock dizzy just as it was designed. Nothing wrong with 6V either, my 53 is still 6 and hasnt failed me in around 65K on a hot flattie. I mounted a 12V in the trunk to run a generic 12V radio in the dash; runs for a month between charges if you remember to turn the radio off. Old wiring is fragile so give it a long hard look before driving again; I wouldnt run 12V on the stock wiring unless you know the insulation isnt all crumbly. Many different old style Mallory's out there and many have problems of their own as well as some are full advance race models. If you dont know what you are looking for it is easy to get burnt. A dual point is nothing more than twice the problems of a single point IMO. We have progressed in the past 50 years. Once or if you switch to 12V I would get a complete MSD dizzy or convert a MOPAR. I cheated when I installed the Mopar in mine. Being in electronics most of my life it was simple to build a 6 to 12V converter to run the ignition only; I also switched to negative ground. Make a plan with your dad; do what you can afford while still being able to drive. Nothing worse than trying to do 5 things at once and wind up losing half a year of driving. When you are ready to run all 3 carbs get back to me, there are ways that work, even with a stocker.
Thanks 286, You've helped me out before on fordbarn. I appreciate the advice. I think I'll repair and replace some wires in the engine compartment and run the 12 in the rear when I need a radio. you stated "A dual point is nothing more than twice the problems of a single point IMO. We have progressed in the past 50 years." I am still hazy on what distributor I should run with 6 volts? Thanks Chris
It comes down to if you want to change the carbs or the dizzy. You have 3 strombergs already, I'd just run those. But then you have to change the dizzy because of the vacuum "advance." And if you have to change the dizzy and want to go with 12 volts already, why not just go for 12 v all together. You say you want to "replace a few wires" that to me just means replacing a few more... then a few more... before long you just get sick of it and replace all the wires! Just do it up front and save yourself the aggrivation. Haywire's complete bumper to bumper wiring kit was around $250 if I remember right. It was a little pricey but it saved a hell of a lot of time and aggrivation. Money well spent. And I never had another wiring problem again in that 50 year old car. If you swap out the center carb for a holley 94 (may be the stock one that came on the car?), you have to block off the other 2 carbs and fuel lines. The performance might not be hampered that much with running on 1 carb but it makes you wonder why you went to the trouble of changing the intake in the first place. You can run the stock dizzy then and you could stay with 6v but you will probably want to clean up the wiring anyway. An old mallory dual point shouldn't be terribly hard to find in good working order. It may take a bit of time and money but they were about the best aftermarket dizzy out there. Dual points are slightly harder to maintain than single points and both require more maintenance than an electronic dizzy, but points are cheaper than electronic modules and their easier to replace in a pinch. It's all relative and depends on what you want out of the car. There're trade-offs to every choice you make and each choice opens a new can of worms to be delt with. All in all I think the best advice so far is to talk it out with your dad since he's building the engine for you, and work out a plan that you both can live with. Good luck!
Thanks Kilroy, you make valid points about the wiring. This is a lot of info to absorb so I think I need to re-evaluate everything. A lot of my decisions are being made upon reflection of my budget - which is very thin. I would like a loom but at that price it's out of the question. On a different note- I talked to my Dad tonight and tried filling him in a bit on what was said- he basically said don't forget, we ran this shit in the 50's and made it work with what we had. I gotta reflect back to square one every once in a while and remember this is a local driver, I'm out in rural corn country, I'm not making this into a show car. Who needs perfection and reliability - If it breaks down I'll walk. Thanks again Chris
I am still hazy on what distributor I should run with 6 volts? You dont have many options. It is either the original with a 94 in the center as I suggested for starters or a Mallory or other dual point; there were several available in the 50-60's, Spaulding was one. But the problem with the aftermarket oldies is just finding parts for some of them. They make better museum pieces. If you go 12V the new MSD has an excellent reputation, even with a gennie, and the Mopar is bulletproof; Ive 375+K on the one in my 85 Dodge van. Some have put the Mopar guts inside the Ford housing, requires less machine work than a complete conversion swap.
[ QUOTE ] On a different note- I talked to my Dad tonight and tried filling him in a bit on what was said- he basically said don't forget, we ran this shit in the 50's and made it work with what we had. [/ QUOTE ] I like your dad! But also remember in the 50's that car was only a few years old. You could also get 6v electrical parts anywhere.
What's hard to find? Are talking about parts for the dual point stuff? Yep, some items like caps are bringing big bucks on EPay. Mallory had several versions also over the years. The current repops are Chinese. Pertronix modules are now available for 6V so even if you stick with the old dizzy you get the benefit of better starting, economy, etc.
The 74-87 electronic from any V8. You also need the firewall mounted ECU and you might as well get the coil and ballast resistor along with all the connectors. Since there were dual ballast and dual pickup versions you cant mix them up. The coil itself is actually a 6V unit and works great in a 6V flatty without the ballast. Naturally the centrifugal section will need to be recurved.
On your 12 volt conversion. This is what I did when I did it on my dads 40. First I went and got a repo, harnes form vintage ford. His needed new wires. Got the generater set up to make 12 volts. Changed all the light bulbs. New mallory duel point. Voltage drop for the gauges. 6v starter likes 12v. Heres a tip on the volt. drop. Ford used 6v gauges up into the late 70s and volt drops can be found on the back of the clusters. I even found that the gauges in late? 50s to 78 F600s (you know the old uhall trucks) are a bolt in on a 40 cluster. The stock 40 gauge faces even go right on the newer gauges. I think I have seen the same gauge clusters in old econoline vans. Check it out thay probably fit your car to.
I'd like to finish off by saying thanks for everyone's input. Here's what were gonna do. Staying 6 volts, running factory distributor. I'm gonna run 2 holley's and either trade my 3x2 for a 2x2 or just run a dummy on the 3x2. Also gonna get a stage 1 type cam, give it some new technology and help it breathe a little. I have ceramic coated Sanderson headers waiting for install also. Sound good to you guys? Between my Dad and his mechaninc buddy they said it shouldn't be a big deal tuning the 2x2. later You'll see my 3x2 offy and 3 stroms on ebay within a couple days
Sounds like a plan to me and you will get a lot of spare cash to play with. Here is the 2 carb tuning info I wrote up a few years ago. Show it to your dad. <center><h3>The KEY to using 94s by 286Merc</h3></center> Lots of confusion still remains about using Holley 94's and vacuum only distributors on 8BA's and early Y blocks. I'll just talk about the 1948-54 8BA style distributor. Over 2 years ago I got into a discussion with an expert on another forum who positively stated that you could not run dual 94's and a stock distributor. When I said I better take my setup apart then all hell broke loose. A few others keep referring to an outdated 1954 magazine article like it was some type of gospel. First of all there are over 17 varieties of the 94 style family, starting back in 1938 with the Chandler Grove and ending with the 1957 272 Y block for Ford production. Generic parts store replacements were available well into the 70's as the Holley 2100 and 2110. The Y block versions differ from the true 94 (which is the .094" venturi diameter) since they have a 1.0" and 1.062" venturi and often have a 1 or 1 1/16 marking on the side. There was even a 1 1/8" aftermarket version available that was quite common on hopped up VW's. The Lincoln V12 had a LZ casting which was also a 1" venturi. Bendix and Stromberg even got into the act, a Stromberg 94 clone actually has 97 on the side and is often found on EBay selling as a true 97! The CFM of the 94 family varies from 150 to 190 for ones used on Ford vehicles. The larger venturies will give a slight power increase in even a stock or mildly modified engine. Before attempting a tear down get a copy of the Ford procedure and a detailed parts blow up. It is part of the Shop Manual but some arent as detailed. The 1952 car manual or the aftermarket 1952-54 combined version is the best IMO. I always suggest that users start with a matched pair of casting models that have the vacuum port on the lower right side of the bowl; you can not use the earlier versions without a vacuum port with the stock 8BA distributor. These carbs carry bowl ID's of 7RT, 8BA, 8RT, EAA, EAB, EBU, EBV, ECG, 2100, 2110 and probably some I missed. If you decide to use any of the Y block carbs then remove and plug the spark control valve in the base. Another thing to check for is the nozzle bar, there were standard and hi-lift nozzle bars; dont mix types. The Shop Manuals suggested show the differences quite clearly. The drill bits specified for cleaning passages can be found at hobby/model shops. Guitar strings are good alternatives should they be handy. After a thorough cleaning, check for any cracks, warpage or corrosion, repair or discard the bad piece. One old tried and true method of truing up the bowl and air horn surfaces is to place a clean sheet of 220 grit wet/dry paper on a pane of glass and gently slide the part over it; visually look for low spots. Finish off with 400 grit for a nice smooth surface. It is always good to have several parts carbs. Next step is to rebuild them exactly the same. Dont be suprised by what you will find inside of that flea market goodie, parts were often swapped without consideration of correctness even in carb shops. Just do both the same and to original specs. Spend a little extra time polishing up any interior mold roughness; a Dremel works great for this. Next is the throttle shaft. For dual carbs using drivers side linkage you need extended throttle rods. These can be found on many early and later carbs that used a hand throttle. Quite common on 1948 and later trucks as well. Ford says .008" wear is OK but that usually also means the base casting is egg shaped by now and leaking vacuum like a sieve. The first step cure is an oversize shaft and a reamed base; try for a .002" fit. In extreme cases you will have to bore out the base and fit a bushing that should be a bit undersize and reamed to fit; getting everything realigned can get tricky. Several Internet and Hemmings advertisers can supply the needed parts or even rebuilt bases. Then pay particular attention to fitting the butterflies to the throttle bores. That fit is VERY important and you might need to have several extra carbs (of any ID) on hand to find the tightest fit. The Y block plates are slightly larger than the flathead versions so dont get them mixed up. I like repeating myself about spare carbs. Hold up to a light to check, there should be the tiniest sliver of light visible. Also be certain the bases arent severely pitted and butterflies corroded on the edges, a sure source of vacuum problems. ALSO be sure you dont reassemble the plates backwards! Leave the choke plate in place for both carbs. Altho only one will be choked the plate is required for good air flow direction. Tests have shown a hp loss without the plate. Next comes the true test, tuning them up. I like to start with only one carb mounted with a known good air filter; not some restrictive import. Securely block off the other hole. Temporarily block off the vacuum line. Start the engine and adjust the carb for a good idle, be sure there are no vacuum leaks on this carb and over at the block off plate and at the manifold ports. Dishwashing liquid and water mix in a spray bottle works great. A leak sucking vacuum will cause a stumble, an air leak will cause bubbles. Do not ever use WD-40 or other flamable liquid. Warm up the engine and secure the choke wide open. Now hook up a vacuum gauge to the carb port; dont even think about running duals (or trips) without one. Assuming the engine is tight, there should be around 18"/hg at idle. If it's much lower then it's time to trouble shoot. I'm assuming a non full race competition cam. Rev it up a bit, the vacuum should hold fairly steady thru at least 2500 rpm. Note that Im leaving the distributor vacuum off for now and not worrying about the advance. If you are absolutely/positively sure the distributor is perfect then hook it up if it makes you happy. I personally prefer as few possible problem areas at this stage. Tweak the idle mixture screws for maximum vacuum and a smooth idle, actual rpm is not important but it is a lot quiter down around 5-600 rpm. If everything is OK then swap carbs and repeat. Its a lot easier to get the idle set this way than with both in place plus you can find problems easier. And not place the blame on something else later on. If you havent installed the new intake yet then by all means do the initial adjustments on the stock one. Now mount both carbs but no linkage. Get out the Uni-Syn that you should have bought along with the vacuum gauge. Use the Uni-Syn to measure/equalize air flow of both carbs AND the vacuum gauge to set final idle mixture. Final result should coincide with maximum vacuum. There are other balancing devices available, if you are familiar with their operation then use them. Then hook up the linkage and do it all over again. This step assures that the linkage is not applying any control to the throttle rods. Tighten down the stops. Be sure you pay attention to blocking off the not in use vacuum port. Only the front carb will be needed to provide a vacuum signal to the distributor. By this time you should have 2 almost identical carbs. Use clean, fresh and well filtered gas. If using an electric pump set the pressure regulator for 2.5 lbs maximum. Hook up the choke cable to one carb, usually the rear. Hook up the vacuum line from the front carb to the distributor. Hook up the vacuum gauge to the rear carb; the original readings should be pretty close. If not check for hose or diaphram leaks. Now its time for Truth or Consequences. Extend the vacuum gauge hose into the vehicle. I prefer to have someone else do the reading while I pay attention to the driving. Record the readings throughout a full driving pattern, from idle to wide open throttle as you go thru the gears. How does the response feel? Any pinging? Stumble or excessive loading/bogging down? The ideal is to have the power valves open only when they are needed to enrich the mixture. This will be at or near full throttle or under a stiff load like going up a hill. Many of you may not ever want to wind things up that hard. The previous was intended more for stockers who are usually not going much beyond 2500 rpm. For rodders use the 2500 figure as a good place to start opening the valves. If you are staying above 7-8" thru all phases of your way of driving then chances are you are good to go. Stock Ford power valves are 7.5's which means that at that vacuum they open. Tolerance is roughly 1 point either way. If not then it will be necessary to go to a numerically lower power valve. This may raise a few eyebrows but try only one at first; the staggering effect may be to your liking. The front 2 cylinders are often starved with stock and some aftermarket intakes. Fuel flow is a hit and miss operation with all but the best designs. In most cases a pair of 4.5's will handle all but the hairiest cam street engines. I run 4.5's on my 286 and 5.5's for many customer built 276's with Schneider .395" cams. Go to the Holley Technical web site; power valves havent changed nor have the jets for almost 65 years; any speed shop can get what you need. Lots of good info on the Holley site. The new Holley "Hi Performance" PV's will work but require a bit of filing to clear. The worse thing you can do is to plug or otherwise defeat the power valves in this configuration. Running 6 or 8 carbs on a hemi is something altogether different. Once you're sure that the valves arent dumping too early then put in a fresh set of plugs and take a half hour ride at highway speeds. Read the plugs and change jet sizes ONLY if absolutely necessary. One size either way should be enough. Stock jets at sea level are .051; .049 and.047 were used at altitudes in the 5000-15000 foot range. Sometimes changing to a different heat range or brand of plug is a better move. NKG BL6 plugs give me the best results and consistentcy. This is all called fine tuning. So yes, dual 94's and a stock vacuum distributor are compatible a good many times. Dont expect to go racing or expect reliable fire beyond 4000 rpm; this is still a compromise since the distributor is not receiving the vacuum signal it was designed for. If you want a bit more advance (or reduced lack of as the distributor runs backwards from the typical vacuum operation) then turn the spring pins on the top of the plate with pliers. They are an eccentric and the spring tension is adjustable. There are numerous conversions and aftermarket ignition options available; it just takes time and money. The above was a compilation of over 45 years of using these carbs on flatheads and overheads, plus several articles in HRM and others going back as long, and finally some of the more recent books. I would recommend Tex Smiths Flathead manual as good reading altho it is not without errors and omissions. This article will also be useful in some areas when using 3 carbs, however there are differences involved. Thats another article for down the road. Ive made a few minor edits to the original article as it was strictly 8BA specific. There is no reason you cant use 94's on the earlier flatheads either, the requirement for matching still holds but you can use any variety. Simply plug the venturi vacuum port and the spark control valve on Y block types should be removed and plugged. ------------------------------------------------------------ And here is some more 94 trivia that I wrote for a nailhead guy: The Holley 94 was developed for Ford in 1938; the initial design was from Chandler-Grove but Ford screwed them out of the big production contracts. The CG is quite scarce. There are at least 17 varieties between then and the 70's. Ford stopped using them in 56/57 and by that time they had 1 1/16 venturies. Aftermarket went up to 1 1/8 venturies. Parts and kits are readily available, power valves and jets are the same as modern Holley's. Main problem areas are worn throttle shafts and corroded throttle plates; sources of vacuum leaks. When running 2 or 3 carbs you do NOT want to block the power valves. Instead select a power valve rating that opens at WOT or a selected low vacuum level. If the 6 are going to be used on that log its best to have them all the same casting ID as there are flow differences. After 49 you also had standard and high lift nozzle bars, and a venturi vacuum output which needs to be plugged. The 59, 99, and other pre 1949 castings were popular as they didnt have all the differences. Mixing the models up gave the 94 an undeserved bad reputation that the uninformed still believe today. Tuning requires a UniSyn, available most speed shops, on-line, etc.
Just printed it out. Our mechanic friend talked me into it. I think I'm gonna be happy with that setup. Thanks again for the help
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