Oh, is that what that is all about? I just thought the guy that put my fuel lines in didn't know how to use a bender I don't like mine-too many kinks and doesn't look clean...
Doc, I just got off the phone from talking to one of the chemists that works at the company I used to work for. His comment was that the Brazilian formulation of gasoline was/is all over the map. (most fuel is fairly low grade - low octaine) He is familiar with the study I mentioned, and said that the "degradation of copper bearing components takes YEARS before causing problems." Remember this is BRAZILIAN FUEL! Their biggest problem is "gumming" of fuel that has sat too long. (even as little as a month) The study actually refers to the "degradation of the fuel" that comes in contact with copper bearing alloys. (not being a member of the engineering society that piece comes from, I couldn't read the whole thing)
I have been playing with old fuel systems for more years than I care to remember and I have seen copper fuel lines used for years with no problem, and as far as copper having an adverse affect with American gasoline is pure bunk....as there are thousands upon thousands of carburetors out there that have copper floats that are older than most everyone on this forum. If you want to run copper lines go for it........just not all the way to the fire wall as you will need some flex for engine torque. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
I'd be more concerned about a rubber hose slipping off the end of a copper line, than I would about a properly installed copper fuel line breaking. If you've never experienced the gasoline shower when a hose slips off, you're missing out on an exciting part of life. I always put a "bubble" flare on the end of any metal line that will have a rubber hose on it and is expected to hold any pressure (fuel, heater, trans cooler, etc)
I've had more trouble with the Gates hose splitting with Cali fuel additives lately ... I fired- up my ol' military jeep and heard this hissing, fuel spraying out on the exhaust manifold .... the hose was just over a year old!.... I've had copper in my old tractors that is better than 75 years old ... and my '55 the ol' man put in in '64 ....
I'm surprised. I expected a lot more of the potential blazing inferno posts. Where are all the safety addicts? If copper is so damn ***ile when exposed to vibration, why do the use it in refrigeration units. A/C compressors vibrate too. How often do you replace the lines on your condenser in the back yard? There is probably some truth in the statement but how long does it take to cause a failure. My guess is our cars will fall to dust before the copper tube gets enough work hardening from the meager miles we put on them in a year to create a problem. Everyone need to be aware of a potential problem and make their own judgements on the risks. I plan to replace these suspect copper tubes with the see through plastic hose...that should get 'em riled up.
Do you know where I can get a tool to make those bubble flares? I've been looking for a long time, I usually just do a small flare on the end to keep the hose and clamp from sliding off.
Tommy - A little ironic that I think the all of this unsafe copper fuel line talk is bunk but when I look at your setup I can't help but think I would be adding some sort of supplemental support between the fuel pump and carbs.
A bubble flare can be easily made by just doing the first part of a double flare. Squash the tube with the adapter and your done! I WOULD NEVER use a regular single flare as a way to prevent a rubber hose from slipping off! It WILL stop the hose from slipping BUT it will also cut into the hose and eventually cause it to rupture! I have a large trans fluid stain on the road in front of my house where a friend had a trans cooler line cut thru a hose. He was stopped talking to me when it failed...LUCKLY! Guess what he had done to keep the hose securely on the line... It's one of those ideas that seem great, but fail the test in the real world.
I know the "red hose thing" is mega cool, but you couldn't PAY me to put it on my ride! Call me a wus - that's fine, but you gotta refer to people who are smarter than you are sometimes. Am I referring to MYSELF - awwww hell no!!! I'm referring to the sanctioning bodies for racing. These guys come up with rules for a REASON!!!! They SPECIFICALLY do NOT ALLOW clear type fuel lines -and limit the "real" fuel rated rubber lines. Why - cause they saw people get HURT and realized there were better ways. Same thing with recap slicks - they are NOT allowed - WHY because they're dangerous. A guy we knew went to a nostalgia race this summer with a brand new pair - when I heard of it - I cringed and my buddies thought I read too much....in the end his racing was cut short as those brand new recaps - disenegrated!!!!! Gotta hand it to those guys writing the rules - they've SEEN everything. Bottom line - I know guys (who shall remain anonoymous) who run the clear red plastic fuel lines - I hope it doesn't bite them in the ***. So knowing some guys are dead set on running what's cool ----> why not run your lines in stainless and then slip the red tubing over it - if you were meticulous I'd bet it'd be almost invisible!! Just thining out loud again!
I ran my truck this year at the Bowling Green Hot Rod Reunion, and feared tech because I am running the red clear line from my regulator to the carbs...And they did not mention it to be a problem at all, I almost pointed it out to them but you can not miss it ,the entire front end is red line...This was a NHRA event, I was speechless because all around me they were raisen hell on all the cars around mine at tech..........so I raced and had a ball...........But just learned they sell reinforced red clear line and have some on the way to swap out what I have....But originally used the red line because I was going to run it on the street ,but raced the hell out of it this year...................Littleman
it does't matter what kind of metal line you use as long as you clip a WOODEN clothes pin on it to prevent VAPOR LOCK!
We ALL KNOW that cars going through tech get things OVERLOOKED -maybe even on purpose maybe not. Bowling Green - I believe a certain car there (a tribute car) was "bounced" due to his MOON TANK mount. Tech guys were all over it. But when the ORIGIONAL CAR and much loved origional driver came to tech - ALL was good - same kind of mount that was NO GOOD on the tribute car now p***ed with flying colors. Bottom line - The local tech has the FINAL say - doesn't make it right. Probably along the same line as dealing with building inspectors. My point was this - there's a LOT of GOOD COMMON SENSE written into those rulebooks - ignore it if you like, but don't complain when your car's on fire. Matter of fact - the NSRA - yes the street rod guys - used to (I imagine they still do) have a safety check list. I KNOW it's not comprehensive, but it's a hell of a good starting point. Just basics - scrub lines - when to use oversized washers - nuetral safety switch etc. basically a bunch of good common sense stuff mostly, but it can easily be overlooked in the heat of p***ion - so to speak. Nothing wrong with keeping a reference as a reminder. I know it's not COOL to talk about this on this level, but if we can build them - it don't take much extra to make them 1000% better.
We Brits don't use pure copper brake or fuel line. It is Cupro-Nickel, an alloy that is far more resistant to vibration etc. Fitting these type of brake line is generally regarded as an upgrade over steel lines. I know that in the US you use stainless line - I would be far more worried about vibration cracks in thin stainless than in cupro-nickel. A lot of British Hot Rodders use stainless line because it is a US thing but I'm going with the cupro-nickel on my modified.
Screw it. I'm gonna use aluminized exhaust tube. I know that's safe. Think 1 1/2" will feed the Flatty?
WHere in the U.S can you get copper fuel line, or are guys hitting up plumbing stores for the coiled kind? And what about using it on bikes?
I saw it in rolls at Home Depot (shopping for a water heater at the time). I think I'll just use that and see if they have all the correct fittings also.
Many of my old Brit sports cars were plumbed with copper fuel lines from the factory. Even after 40-50 years, none of them had fractured from work hardening caused by vibration. In the UK they use a copper alloy brake line that is corrosion resistant. In fact, on some of their car forums you will hear dire tales of the dangers of steel brake lines....
Hemirambler thought I should mention that I have changed my red fuel line six times this summer with new stuff, with the hopes that nothing happens. Sure You could run years before something happens, hell I imagine they will loose their red coloring after awhile, just thought it was cheap insurance....Littleman
i personally wouldnt run them...i always thought they were illegal but hey,whatever,right?also,if it's the look you're after, why dont you fab them up and try some copper paint or something?i have an uncle who fixes up his old cars just enough to drive them and he uses copper tubing for brake lines,fuel lines,etc...my dad was thinkin about runnin a set till someone told him that if a cop saw it he'd be in trouble..plus the whole safety issue. creepy
My $0.02 worth: Copper for Brake lines: The Copper Tube Handbook, published by the Copper Development Authority is the design guide for engineers, like me, who design systems with copper tube and pipe. Their Table 3a. Rated Internal Working Pressure for Copper tube: TYPE K, lists 1074 psi at 100 F temperature for 1/4 in. dia. annealed tube and 1612 psi at 100 F temperature for drawn tube. Annealed is the soft coils you can buy at Home Depot. Based on this table I would not use copper tube for brake lines. I picked 100 F temperature because that is the lowest temperature in the table. 1/4 in. dia. is the smallest tube listed in the table. The rated pressures go DOWN as tubing size increases in this table. Type K is the thickest wall copper tube. Copper for Fuel Lines: If you have supported the tubing and put sufficient vibration loops in the tubing you probably will not have problems with the copper work hardening. Remember the key words are "supported the tubing" and "put sufficient vibration loops". The pictures at the beginning of this thread with the full circle loops are good. The picture in Tommy's post, I would re-plumb this car right away with bigger loops and support the tubing better and more often. Copper is like any other engineering material. You have to use it under the proper design conditions. Plastic and Rubber Fuel Lines: Because of all the air pollution requirements making for specially-blended gasolines; using plastic or rubber fuel lines is difficult at best. Rubber Hose: Rubber hose needs to be formulated to handle alcohol and other additives. The hose SHALL BE formulated for fuel systems. And using "shall be" like that makes it a legal requirement type of thing. The high temperatures under the hood of a car accelerate the aging of the rubber products requiring the earlier replacement of the hoses. If its hard or cracked, yank it out and replace it. Period. Plastic Hose: It may be cool but using it is a **** shoot. Again you don't know if its formulated to withstand the gasoling additives and alcohol or the under hood temperatures (even without a hood). And nobody at the local parts store, let alone Auto Zone, et al, will have the knowledge to tell you. If you want the "look" of red plastic tubing do what Moon does with their installation of their Moon "97 look-alike" injectors. They slip the plastic tubing over the outside of a steel tube. They get the old time look of the red plastic and the safety and security of the steel tube. I read that in a Rod & Custom article on the installation of the Moon injectors on, I think, the Budget Beater project. I don't have the issue at hand. That's what I know. There is lots of good info in this thread and there is some hearsay. And hearsay is just that, "I heard somebody say that". So what good is hearsay. You judge for yourself.
It does look cool, but it doesn't handle vibration well. Lots of old motors had copper lines in Europe. Lots of them burned too. If you decide to use them, replace them annually no matter what. Better safe than crispy
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