Technical Cost efficient alternatives to Evercoat Filler and Polyester Primer?

I was lite on that labor analogy.

 

I just do a couple coats, block, repeat. I've leveled out pretty pitted roofs a couple time no problem.

 

So much bad information in these threads when they come up I am not even sure where to begin.

In this day and age if you are having your filler gum up your paper you are doing something wrong. It is either under catalyzed, not fully cured or you have added something to it like regular fiber glass resin.

DO NOT wipe down fillers with Lacquer thinner. The filler will absorb it and may kick it back out when the next chemical reaction happens over top of it causing issues. There is really no good reason to have to wipe down a filler with a solvent but if someone feels it is necessary then a super fast evaporating solvent like Acetone should be used.

Body fillers DO NOT use the same polyester resin as the Fiberglass resins that require a liquid hardener. There is a reason they use hardeners that have a different chemical make up. You will not fully catalyze a fiberglass resin designed to be catalyzed with MEKP liquid hardener with the BPO cream hardeners that are supplied with fillers. This is why you should never use regular resin to thin filler.

Cabosil is not the main thing added to filler to give it its body. Talc (hydrous magnesium silicate) and micro spheres make up the body of fillers and putties.

The thing that needs to be remembered is that the vast majority of these products are designed for the collision industry to reduce work times and reduce redo's. This saves shops money. Features that reduce both of these things in a collision shop environment cost more money. A product like Ultra uses a unique resin that no other manufacturers use that allows it to do a bunch of things that other fillers cannot and that adds to the cost. Many of those features will not benefit a home user.

 

This applies to the hobbiest too...I mean I can get it okay....but only working 10-15 hours a week on a project putting 300 hours into straightening something is practical.

That's the time to do it, doesn't include the time to hone the craft.

Not if you want to finish and actually drive it.

 

The one thing I LOVE about ultra, mixed with extra is the extra time.

As a rookie it gives me plenty of time to properly apply it and not rush. I also have very little hardened filler left on the mixing board.

 

Time is a thing for a home user, too, as some have mentioned.

There exists plenty of lower quality products that are harder to use, as they are harder to spread precisely (or in some cases anywhere near that), are harder to sand, and therefore take longer to smooth out.

Even those playing the home-game can benefit from finishing out an imperfection in 20-minutes, versus 2-4 hours.

I know a bunch of folks that gave up, sprayed, and called it good enough, because they got tired of sanding.

I bet that if every 4-hour time-block of sanding was reduced to 20-minutes, their cars would look better, and they would be happier with the results.

 

Agreed but time in a collision shop can and does have a lot different meaning compared to a home user or even a restorer. For them sanding time is really the major value add to a better quality product maybe spreading to a lesser extent because that is somewhat more skill than product. In a collision shop it can be not having to remove as much paint because a filler can be applied over OEM paint, fewer sanding steps because a filler can be applied over a finer grit sand scratch, less chance of redos because it can go over finer grit scratches, fewer steps because a secondary product like a putty doesn't need to be applied over a filler and paint edge before primer, etc. These types of feature save collision shops a lot of time and money but would be meaningless to a home user and most restorers.

You can make the cheapest, crappiest product sand a lot better by loading it up with microspheres and that is done. Sanding a bunch of hollow spheres is a lot easier than talc and resin.

 

^^^ but alot of that comes from experience.

Like I stated before, my step dad was an old seasoned body man that could do amazing things in a very short time and make it look easy. And take things like a hf spray gun and lay paint that was as good or better than any oem factory paint job.

It all came from experience not necessarily the equipment or products he used.

I'm the same way when it comes to frame straightening or suspension repairs, I can make it look easy and do it very quickly BUT it took alot of yrs to acquire the skill to do it.

My son's will come over, borrow my snap-on tools and find I have about any tool for any job and still can't come close to matching my time or ability to do the same job in alot less time, again using the exact same tools but without the experience it takes them longer.

I say experience will ALWAYS outdo the product. Many metal finish guys prove this day in and day out without fancy tools or machines with just simple hand tools and wooden bucks.

.

 

Not cheap.
But an excellent alternative to using lots of expensive filler

 

You cannot make products do things they are not designed to do no matter how much experience you have. I see guys try all the time and far more often than not it leads to failure. A filler designed to go over a 40 or 80 grit scratch on bare metal is not going to adhere to a 220 grit scratch on OEM paint no matter how much experience you have. A filler that is not designed to go over silicon bronze welds without a primer will not stick long term no matter how much experience you have.

I am not denying that experience plays a part but the major focus of pretty much ever manufacture these days is to design products that reduce the number of steps than need to be taken to complete a repair. You can't just eliminate those steps with the same old products or the repair will fail.

 

That's certainly a consideration. If you are scraping 1/4 of what you mixed into the garbage every time because you ran out of working time how much are you saving by buying a cheaper product or if it takes you 10 times as long because you have to mix up smaller batches, let dry, sand, apply more.... For some that might be worth the savings for others not so much.

 

When it counts, I mix on a scale.
Consistent color and curing.
Plenty of work time

 

Completely depends on what you are working on. There are a ton of situations in Collision shops that require longer working times. If you have to body work the back of a motor home and its 110 out there is not plenty of work time and being able to mix and apply your filler once as opposed to 5 or 6 times saves a ton of time.

 

Haven’t wiped filler in the sun.
But every time I’ve weighed it, I’ve had plenty of work time. Even the evening I went thru 4- 5 gallons on a glass body mold.

 

So talc is hydrous silicate. Do we think Cabosil is the Cabot brand of that shit? It too is a fine powder silicate. I know what we used it for back in the 80s. Microspheres. Ain't heard that one in a while, used to be all the rage (no pun intended) in fillers. I guess we can get into deep chemistry and separate the myriad of polyesters and resins, and shit I can even find some MSDS sheets break it all down by percentage. But why. I mean not every facial tissue is a Kleenex though so we best get it right. This is serious business here. Show of hands, who was gonna go out sort the differences in all these awesome fuckin-near-sand-themself fillers? From here forward I'll stay outta the bondo talk, cuz at the end of the day all of it is just what I said, powder and resin. I'll take a day with hammer, dolly, pick hammer and file, the occasional shrinking disc, and maybe no more than an hour of fill time afterwards any time vs the now industry standard of professional cake frosting everything from 61 Belair to a Deuce roadster from top to bottom and front to back. And I'd be happy to look at one of my 15, 20, 30 year old finishes any time. Fuck, tomorrow if I want. No cracks, no shrinks, fridge magnet sticks EVERYWHERE on the car, still shines like it was done last month. Thats my standard. I don't wanna do it again. But I did say y'all do you so I'll stand by it. Stay frosting, I mean frosty...

 

Don't stop now ,give us the whole enchilada. I've been at this bodyshop rabbit hole for 45+ years ,but I'll be damned if I'm done learning. Jocko we need one of your Tech week threads on dent repair.

 

You know how you can tell a mud slinger from a panel beater? They choke up on a body hammer like the head of their dick. Tech week winner...

 

Don't look for it, Taylor. You may not like what you find. - Dr. Zaius

 

I used to make body filler as a side job. My main job was making polyester resin. The ingredients to make filler have been the same forever. The only thing new is microbubbles and plastic powder. The company making filler was making it for everybody and their brother. The formula would change from one batch to the next batch to suit the name on the label. They used different amounts and grades of aluminum powder, Cabosil or similar products like Aerosil, different grades of talc, and more or less resin. The purpose of Cabosil is to keep the filler from running so it stays where you place it so you can place the filler. It's Thixotropic like catsup.. Cabosil is also more expensive that talc, so to make cheap filler you use less Cabosil and more talc. That makes it harder to work and lets them used less resin per gallon. The part of the formula that makes it set up is a Cobalt Oxide thar reacts with the BOP paste to create heat which polymerizes the resin making it a solid. Any questions?

 

Spend the extra time on your metal work nine time out of ten all you will need is metal glaze or a fast fill primer. You asked for a cheaper filler from the big guys 3M makes Bondo brand but you get what you pay for. Most of the good stuff is north of a 100 bucks and work very well but for a home guy how can you justify it.

 

Cost of filler and primer doesn't bother me as much as the quality of sandpaper. 3M green, gold, red or purple or Norton blue just don.t hold their bite like the use to. I take my time with filler, after it kicks, I knock the surface off with 80 or 120. But then I walk away and let it cure out for a day or so. I find it sands and feathers out better for me that way. For years I was a Z Grip and Metal glaze guy. But now my only local source is Napa, so I use 3m filler. But I also always spend extra time on my metal work, so a gallon goes a long way in my shop. I have been at it for 50 years. Don't care what brands you use; quality work is still a lot of work!!! lol Larry

 

Long ago Bonnie and Donnie were quite the couple. He was a fan of boats and Corvettes and liked that new fangled Fiberglass stuff. One day she came out to watch him work some of the liquid body builder after a shower, and was on a stool powdering her smooth sexy thighs. Donnie got a little distracted and shifting position accidentally knocked the baby powder from her hand and the whole mess spilled into his bucket of resin. "Shit Bonnie, now what? I'm outta resin this was the last of it, oh no!" "Well use it baby what else can you do?" So he went on ahead and started spreading it anyways, noticed a wide putty knife was easier with all that talc. "Damn Bonnie this stuff is as smooth and creamy as those sexy legs of yours!" "Well maybe we can get rich and sell it." "What do we call it?" "I dunno honey, just name it after us. Donnie Bonnie maybe?" "No, shorter, and you first." Thus "BonDo" was born. The end...

 

^^^^^ chocolate chip cookies had almost the same beginning.

 

Damn, so many left turns could be taken with that one Myrick...