Cross steer VS Suicide steer

I didn't say you need to run a panhard bar, I said you'll get better stability if you do. I also didn't say you should run one on a 4 bar and not on a hairpin setup. Anyone that builds dropped axle front ends for a living will tell you to use a panhard bar, 4 bar or hairpin, Posies includes a panhard bar with thier front axle package, So Cal speed shop does also, that's good enough for me, I build my car to drive and handle as good as I can while keeping with the more traditional looking suspension, but you do what you want.

 

Hey i never said you said i was merly asking why that all , i thought you might have some lite on this .

I'm not going to run a panhard bar but i will make something custom and different and a steering stabilizer is a good idea .

I wasen't putting you down in anyway at all i appreciate all you input and info

Mike

 

An alternative to a panhard bar is to run a 'dead perch' . This avoids the clearance/interference issues while still providing some lateral support.

As for the running hairpins and a tube axle - DON'T ! Just because folks 'got away' with this in the past does not make it right.
An I beam axle is designed by it's very section to take some twisting forces, a
tube axle WILL NOT . As far as the hairpins flexing, This is not what they are intended to do either . My thoughts are you would likely break a clevis before a hairpin failed though.

Back to the Axle debate , grab yourself a popsicle stick , hold each end and twist it a little ( I beam axle ) .
Now grab the straw out of your wifes expensive ****tail and hold each end while you twist a little ( tube axle )


You are obviously building a project from scratch , build it the right way .


.

 

Sorry Mike, I was just responding to post 58, no harm no foul. I can understand not wanting the clutter of the panhard, I'm running full fenders so you don't see it, I'm glad to hear you'll run the stabilizer though, you'll be glad you did, good luck with the project. Sorry it takes some time for me to respond, I've got dial up connection here and it ties up my phone when I'm on the computer.

 

I didn't read the whole thread...because it's really cluttered and annoying.

But I can tell you this Hillbilly Hot Rods...you have to do your homework on steering geometry. Any type of steering will work if it's setup correctly.

If you just post an open ended question on here like that....you're going to get a thousand different answers...alot of them which will be misleading or half true or whatever.

You need to fully understand why things work the way they do, and why setting them up incorrectly will cause problems.

 

To add to the clutter..oldchool66 my previous post wasn't directed to you personaly just an opinion. If the front spring has some preload/tension it is a lateral locator. Should someone not be able to do this, this is a less in your face solution, i have seen a few different designs of this but can only find this one pic at the moment.

 

Everybody has their own "opinion" about tube axles/I-beam axles...etc. And again...you'll get comments that are misleading and don't provide the full understanding of how things work.

The fact of the matter is, Ford themselves ran original setups with TUBE axles and wishbones. The base of the issue isnt really about the axle flexing or not flexing, it's about your locators (wishbones, hairpins or whatever) being able to articulate and move with torsional forces...rather than binding under torsional forces.

If you use unsplit wishbones in the original configuration, with a tube axle, there's no issue even worth talking about.

However, splitting the bones and mounting them on the framerails changes the game...a bit...and it's complicated to try to explain.

Split bones, or hairpins (solid locators) mounted on the frame rails will essentially limit the maximum amount of articulation possible. Imagine one tire going way up in the air and the other one staying flat on the ground...eventually you'll hit the articulation limit and cause things to start binding up. When you start to hit the binding point, somethings gotta give.

An I-beam axle will give, twist, move and flex when all else fails. The tube won't budge. But that doesn't mean you can't use a tube axle with solid locators.

You have to remember that you'd really have to push the front end to a ridiculous limit of articulation to cause binding that could break something.

Using a heavyduty tierod end at the frame mounting point gives you alot of articulation room. If you decided to use hairpins and a tube axle, you could use a 4link batwing at the axle side (using urathane bushings there) and a tierod end at the frame mount. This would give you your articulation, and also provide some give in those batwing bushings if you ever bind up...they can absorb that energy.

There's a set of front end "RULES" based on solid engineering principles...that just say YES or NO...no grey area. If you don't understand the science...it's better to get a yes or no. If you understand, you see the grey and why "some guys" get away with it...and some guys don't.

You can **** up anything, even the black and white stuff. So if you can't wrap your head around the grey....stick to the basics.

 

I found this info >>>>http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/pdf/Street_COP_sec_5.pdf

What do you think (helpfull)

Going out to the LUCKY 7 hot rod shop , i'll post when i get back

Have a great day guy's


Mike

 

The steering info in that do***ent will be helpful for somebody trying to understand the basics, for sure.

However, there's some stuff in there that's ********...like not being allowed to mount a wishbone on your framerails? Gimme a break! hahah

 

Ya . but there is some good info in there

 

Went to Luck 7 hot rods today and picked up some 4 bar batwings and my 32" x 1" 4 bars and some other little odds and ends .

If you haven't dealt with Joe at Lucky 7 give him a call he will fix you up with great deals , make sure you ask for Joe directly


Mike

 

Here's one way of doing it.
This car handles like a race car yet still rides very soft.

 

KOOL looking setup

 

Exactly. I come from a hard sciences background. I know what kind of forces are being applied to these components, in exac***ude.

There is sound reasoning behind not running a set of wishbones with a tube axle. As was mentioned above, since the tube has no give, it places a lot more force on the hairpins, and the anchor, than an I-beam axle ever would. If the construction, components, and the welding are not all at an acceptable level, it is a recipe for disaster. It is asking a lot from some relatively light components. Don't get it wrong.

It was more than a few years ago, so I will have to dig, but I figured out that a common setup has 1.25x, or so, safety factor. Safe enough, for some, but not for me. Most industries operate with a 4x (or in some cases 5x) safety factor.

Yes, you will likely be fine, and most are. Just be aware how close to not fine you might be. Drive aware.

I, personally, have mangled 2"x2"x.250" square, and 1-3/4"x.250" DOM round control arms on my off-road rig. I shudder when I look at what I see some selling as suspension parts for hot rods.

 

Do you agree that running hairpins, with a 4-link batwing on the tube axle( with bushings) and a tierod end at the frame mount would lend a reasonable amount of safety to the setup?

 

Yeah really slick idea...I'm sure you could mount the tierod end upside down as well, straight up through a mounting point, rather than on its side like that.

I don't see any issues with running a setup like that with a tube axle.

But the common need to split the bones to make way for lowering and bigger drivetrains will make that setup difficult for some...it'd be a build specific setup in most cases.

 

I would like to thank everyone for there input on this topic lots of good info .

I will be useing a 4 bar setup with my tube axle and a custom locator (panhard bar)

I have the 4 bars and just waiting on some more parts to come in that i ordered , once i start pieceing and welding things i will start a build thread and post pix as i go.

Thanks agian and don't worry there will be more questions lol

Mike

 

A friend had that exact set up and kept shearing the perch bolts. He carried spares on trips!

 

Yikes...perch bolts are hard to shear too! haha.

Is he doing any rock-crawling with that rig?

 

Well I guess the short of it is...if you want to play it safe...play it safe.

 

My opinion....yes it would offer a measurable amount of extra safety...BUT not all bushings are created equal!
It would require true rubber bushings at the bat wings with a reasonable amount of deflection available under load.
Hard plastic or urethane etc might be a completely different story!!!

 

Exactly, a bushing would be better. A rubber one, at that, as big as you can get. You want something soft that can give, instead of stressing the wishbone.

 

I know I'm totally hijacking this thread, but I think clarification is key here. Do you guys know any company that makes a soft "Rubber" bushing that fits the hotrod production 4-link end?

 

There is no Hijacking here all info is good for everyone that needs it so carry on

Mike

 

What is the thread diameter and pitch of the link end?

 

Looking for the same thing. The plastic bushings are great for road racers, but I am too looking for more forgiving rubber bushings to let my rear suspencion move and twist.
And the rubber bushings have to fit the standard 4 link rod end. Too much to ask??

 

When I built the rear 4 link for my F100 I used mid '90's Toyota landcruiser rear Panhard bar bushes - You might find these pretty close for what you need .

As for running a soft/pliable type bush in the rod ends/batwings on the front end ... I would be concerned about a castor change under braking ,
Personally I wouldn't do it.



.

 

I don't know for sure...but I'd figure a rubber bushing would be much easier to twist then to allow foreward/backward movement to the point that caster would be seriously changed.
P&J's original 4 bars used rubber bushings but they changed them to Urethane to increase roll resistance.
With a 4 bar, that meant that P&J had TWICE the number of rubber bushings compared to what we are discussing, but I've never heard of them having caster change issues.
For that matter...Modern Dodge RAM pickups and Jeeps all used large diameter rubber bushed 4 bars in the front of their solid axle 4x4 vehicles for years. Again...thats twice as many rubber bushings!

I think caster change is a non-issue..especially considering the amount of caster we generally use.

 

I gotta agree with that