Technical Cylinder sleeving?

After visiting a local car museum, a friend of mine and I were discussing how long these vintage cars would stay in service for future generations to see and enjoy. I remarked that the engines would eventually reach a point where they could no longer be overhauled due to cylinder bore wear. He explained that a "sleeve" can be pressed into the bore to create a like-new cylinder. You guys would know better than anyone - is this a viable option for keeping old engines alive? If so, can the process be repeated when the "sleeve" wears out?

 

The short answer is "yes" and sleeves can be replaced when they need to be.

Pat

 

I bore and install dry "repair sleeves" in engine blocks almost every week.

Many industrial/agricultural engines that cannot be replaced with new are commonly repaired this way.

Just this week I sleeved a Hercules six cylinder back to standard bore. As the only pistons available are std. bore and this engine was already at .040" .

Did a Waukesha 4 cylinder last month. Bored out the previously installed repair sleeves and installed new dry sleeves. Acommon repair in my business.

 

I had a 283 that I put two sleeves in it because of scored walls from wrist pins moving. It ran great!

 

A lot of mills would end up in the junk pile if it weren,t for sleeves!

 

Thanks for the informative replies guys! Does sleeving not take metal away from the original block? Maybe that's how Irv Gordon kept his 66 Volvo running for 3 million miles (on 2 rebuilds).

 

It is certainly a viable option and a lasting repair. I've seen racers sleeve all cylinders on a bigger bore block to increase cylinder wall thickness. Kind of pricey so its not always worth it on common stuff like a small block Chevy but for rare or numbers matching, it is definitely the answer.

 

There really is no need to worry about having to sleeve all those old car engines....since they mostly never get used any more. Look around you when you're driving, do you see any old cars on the road? I hardly ever do.

 

Yes sleeving required you to bore the cylinder to the outside diameter of the sleeve usually a couple thousands smaller to achieve a good press fit. Then the sleeve has to be bored on the inside diameter to fit your new piston.. Hope that answers your question KB88

 

Common repair sleeves are 3/32"-1/8" thick. So that much must be removed from the original block.

 

Better move to Michigan, where old cars are seen on the road any warm, dry day. Sometimes those are rare tho.

 

I really only see sleeving when someone has a special casting # block that they want to save for a restoration.Between boring the block ,decking the block and reboring after installation it is not a cheap fix.

 

How many miles do they get driven every year? And is that number going up, or down?

Down here where we have nice driving weather year round, usually the only old car I see on the road is the one I'm driving.

 

Up in the NW believe it or not they still drive old junk all the time. Not everyone and it is fast becoming Calif North which will bring that to an end but today you can cruise up there and see old heaps being used as daily transportation.

As for sleeves yes you have to remove some metal to put them in. How much metal depends on the type of sleeve and you do have to make the bore straight and round to properly install one.

Museum cars seldom get driven and more often then not don't even run. if all you are after is something to look at and remember then all you really need is the outside of it. I personally am not a restorer and don't consider many old engines worth the cost to make them run, but there are still people who do and that makes those old pieces of pig worth saving, a sleeve is one way to do that.

 

look on e-bay--people are always listing sleeves for flathead fords

 

On a lot of Diesel engines the whole cylinder is replaceable. On a 6-71 GMC the cylinder has "O" rings top and bottom and you drop it into the block and bolt the rod to the crankshaft and the head holds it all together. On really big engines like Fairbanks Morse the cylinder is about three feet tall and there is an upper and lower piston that comes together in the middle of the liner. You set the cylinder in place and bolt the upper rod to the upper crank and the lower rod to the lower crank. There is no head and the combustion chamber is formed between the two pistons when they come together. Just a little lesson for the young guns.

 

I've never been worried about sleeving a block. A lot of machinists insist sleeves R stronger than the original bore

 

Yes if you have to pay a machine shop to do it it's not cheap but when you have a kwik way in the garage it just takes a lil time and a sleeve..

 

Lots of blocks used to get sleeved so that the bore could go bigger then the engineers planned, not so much today as there are so many custom blocks around.

I tend to agree with the block being stronger thing, it depends on the machinist and the type of sleeve installed I suppose. I have never been afraid of a sleeved block and have even run more then one small block with wet sleeves. it used to be a way to get big inches in a small block class.

 

Some flathead Fords and Mercs built in the '39-41 period had thin replaceable sleeves OEM. A very simple hand tool kit allowed the sleeves to be pulled out and new ones pulled in with a screw apparatus. Like other Fords, these engines also had replaceable valve seats. Almost a recipe for an eternal engine...

 

You may remember the late and mostly forgotten Chevy Vega. Aluminum block. As soon as you overheated it the rings were running on soft aluminum. Many were fixed by installing sleeves that had a step on the top so that the head held it down. I have seen one that the machinist made the counter bore a little to deep and the sleeve could move slightly in the block. Didn't seem to hurt it. My lotus 907 i had in my 29 Ford roadster had drop in wet sleeves. Pretty neat I thought.

 

I wish there was a thanks button so I could thank everyone for contributing to this thread. You guys are a great resource and I surely appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions!

Regarding:
"Some flathead Fords and Mercs built in the '39-41 period had thin replaceable sleeves OEM. A very simple hand tool kit allowed the sleeves to be pulled out and new ones pulled in with a screw apparatus. Like other Fords, these engines also had replaceable valve seats. Almost a recipe for an eternal engine..."

That sounds like industrial diesels that have removable cylinders. What would prevent someone from putting millions of miles on an engine block using that kind of setup?

I just picked up a Seagrave V12 to restore. Maybe it would be worth the investment to go through the procedure.

 

The Ford production sleeves were thin, like .040, with a step at the top edge that registered them in block when inserted. They were ready to go, with proper finish for the specified rings. The tool kit had a big plug mandrel that prevented them from collapsing as they were pulled into place. Very neat system.
The big expensive diesels and some other engines (Triumph TR's??) had complete cylinder removable, with steps and gasketage to seal them into the water jackets...this system really needs a bloc designed for it, with big bukheads in the water jacket to provide the strength that is supplied in normal engines by the cast-in cylinders.
Rodders have done this...I have an article in an ancient magazine in building a 400" 283 Chevy by boring cylinders entirely away! But I think this can lead to trouble with a block that is too flexible. Don't know...

 

is that a 2-stroke?

 

Yes, GMC and Fairbanks are two stroke engines. In the GMCs the blower pressurizes an air box around the bottom of the cylinders. As the piston goes to BDC it uncovers holes that let the pressurized air into the cylinder then as the piston comes up it closes off the holes and starts compressing the air in the cylinder above the piston. At TDC the injector fires a shot of fuel into the combustion chamber and the burning charge sends the piston down on the power stroke. Just before BDC the exhaust valves are opened by rocker arms and the incoming air at the bottom forces the exhaust out the manifold then the valves close starting the compression stroke. GM started making the engines in the late 1930s and they are bulletproof, not the most fuel efficient though.
The Fairbanks engines have been around even longer and are still used in Locomotives. 8 1X8" bore and 38" stroke. Big Roots blower pressurizes the air box around the tops of the liners and exhaust exits through ports around the bottom. When the pistons come together the combustion chamber is formed between the pistons and two fuel injector nozzles squirt fuel into the compressed air. The upper crankshaft leads the lower by 12# so it can't lock up. The upper crank reaches TDC and is 12# on it's stroke when the two pistons come together.
I got my training in the Navy and I was stationed on Submarines that survived WWII. My boat had four of the 38D Fairbanks engines. The engines are attached to generators and on the surface the power could be sent to the electric motors that turned the screws or to charge the battery banks.

 

Just where is your garage?

 

In eastern NC..I have been a machinist by trade for 24 years an I have a home shop with vintage Mach tools from 1919- 1950.. An use them quite a bit working on my old hot rods...

 

local machine shop charges $70 per hole

 

You get a good deal. i paid $100

 

Knew a guy who was a Renault dealer back when they were called re-nalts. NOT ra-nose's When he did an engine job he would put three blobs of braze on the outside top of the liner, then file them down to fit in the block. Stock, they would move around, and wear out the head gasket. Sloppy French machining.

Herb