Just stumbled across this old thread. Jeez still getting replies 2 1/2 years later. Irrevelent now just sold the car. this thread can be closed.
dont buy a registration..thats all it is..a piece of paper..it means nothing if you dont have the****le. Cars are registered each year in some states to re-up them for the next year, in other words, there could be alot of registrations out there for that very same number (car) if you cant get a****le, apply for a lost****le, not sure how to go about this in NY,,ask some NY. HAMBers. trust me you dont wanna spend all that time and money on building a car on suspect numbers. do you have a frame you just cant find the numbers on? whats the real situation? oh and to answer your question..you can have the DMV or secretary of state (what ever office deals with the registration of vehicles in your area) run the numbers..it can take 1 to 3 days , but it will let you sleep at night. I found and ran my numbers on my A just to be 100% sure i wasnt wasting my time on this frame before i built it.
Exactly what VON RIGG FINK said...especially about States with no****les. NYS didn't go to****les untill the mid seventies. Before that, it was registrations only, so there could be DOZENS of "registrations" for the same vehicle...since they had to be renewed every year. Lots of money to be made by selling all those registrations for the same vehicle. If it's already registered by somebody else, and YOU try to register a vehicle using a registration from another year for it, the***** will hit the fan BIG time in NYS. Best bet is to get a****LE from another State, not just a registration...
You MUST learn the DMV rules for your state. A good start is taking advantage of New York's website: http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/proove.htm "NYS does not issue****le certificates for 1972 and older vehicles. NYS DMV normally issues a transferable registration for proof of ownership for a 1972 or older motor vehicle." Never go into the DMV without having the exact paperwork prepared BEFOREHAND. Call or email to get the correct procedure ... do not depend on them to GUIDE you through in person. Registration/title clerks want to handle your transfer and then take the next person in line. You can usually read online the same procedures manual they use. Here's a clue from the website above: "Different states issue different documents for ownership and transfer of older vehicles. To make sure that an out-of-state document is the acceptable proof of ownership, contact the DMV in the state that issued the document." In a number of states, the registration is proof of ownership. New York sure appears to be one of them. There are others.
If you can get a****le...I have used a NY registration and had no problems but I had a bill of sale with it.....
Here's another note on the safety in buying****les ... since there are a couple Florida guys here. Florida will dump old****les that are on the state's books unless the****led vehicle is currently registered. I have already run into a situation with a "good", old****le ... on a Model A chassis, by the way ... that was not currently tagged and registered. Was warned about what is coming when I sold it. State-stored paper****les are giving way to digital****les. So, buying an old****le does not mean it is valid. Another scenario. You live in Florida. Move to Alabama. Register your old car there ... since no****le is required, you can walk in the court house and buy a tag, then you put the Florida****le away in a cigar box. A couple of years later you sell the car to a guy in Georgia. Alabama registration and a bill of sale gives the buyer a Georgia proof-of-ownership registration. You then give/sell the Florida****le to someone. Is that****le proof of ownership? (Florida old car****le holders, with car or not, should register/tag the vehicle. I have an old '38 coupe that I didn't think needed a tag ... not so. Even if it's out in the barn, put a Horseless Carriage permanent tag on it (if applicable.)
Only an idiot or someone who doesn't know how it works, wastes money on a****le to use to register a 1972 or older car in New York. New York DMV doesn't even want to look at an old****le on those cars, they could care less about it. Go to the DMV or the DMV website and get copies of forms MV51 and MV51-B. They're self explanatory. You can fudge some of the info if you don't have it. You can sometimes get away with getting the DMV clerk to cross reference by serial number other cars for the weight, or bring in a copy of something like a Krause Publications "Standard Guide To" which lists weights, if you can't go actually weigh the car itself. Bring that stuff, your pencil etch or photo of the serial, your reciept, your insurance cards and your MV80 (the green sheet) and you'll get plates the same day. The reg is nontransferrable while Albany checks to make sure the serial doesn't show as stolen - about 6 weeks you get a transferrable in the mail if it all checks out. Very easy, no notary needed, just some info from the previous owner. It also costs no more money than you would normally pay to register the car, anyways. That's how I got plates on my '50 Chevy - Because NY accepts a pencil etch of the serial number, you can stamp your Model A frame with a brand new number if necessary. A little research into Ford serial numbers should make it easy to find one that no one else would be using. All 2-door body styles in New York show on the reg sticker as "2DSD" be it coupe, sedan, hardtop, whatever, if it has 2 doors and a solid roof it's a 2-door sedan to them. Convertible is CONV and any station wagon is SUBN.
So... what if someone is using the frame with the serial number stamped in by Ford? Sounds to me like you could get yourself in a LOT of trouble unless you knew for sure that frame was destroyed. Isn't this how Boyd C got into trouble?
Doesn't matter with the MV51 unless you get a frame and someone kept the body and registration. With those forms you use the number stamped into the car. I do have a frame that the serial is no good on, I know it's in use. If I ever build it I'll just use the serial from a doodlebug frame instead - NYS does not inspect the car and even if they did, you have to tear the thing apart on a Model A to find it.
My question; is buying a****le legal in your state? I know in Idaho the DMV has a flag on all****les that arrive here from the states that only have a registration system and have a list of known****le sellers around the country. They do check all numbers from the frame or body when a****le transfer is issued from any car out of state. In state numbers are only checked if you do not have a****le for the car you are trying to****le in your name. They run the numbers to see if it has a currant****le in our state as well as the nation.
I always wondered about this. I have a 29 tudor I bought from my uncle and he lives in kansas. There was no****le so before I brought it so home he went and got a****le for it in his name and transfered it to me. I got a tag for it when I got back to Oklahoma. The thing I was worried about was that I bought a new frame from Pete and Jakes to put the body on and I still have the original rolling chassis with the numbers on it that match my****le. I plan to stamp the vin off the****le into my new frame. The question is if I sell the original frame and someone goes to get a new****le for it with the orginal number and find out it is already being used. What Happens Then? What are the chances that someone could try to claim my car and I have to try and prove which cars which! Obviously mine will not be original (It will be the fake one). I have heard of a horror story about a guy the bought a coupe from someone with a bill of sale saying it was a whatever year ford coupe with no identifiable numbers on the bill of sale. The original owner said there was no****le. When the new owner was almost done putting the car back together the guy he bought it from showed up with the cops and the****le and took the car back. Could be an urban myth but still makes me want to keep the original chassis just in case.
I didn't read this thread so this may be a repeat. DO NOT by a "title" or "registration" from NY. Back in the day, every time the car got the registration re-newed, another****le or registration was created. Ever wonder why the guys have so many '32 NY****les for sale? If the state you live in is even remotely on the ball, they will realize there are X amount of open '32 NY****les with the same VIN. Good luck.
Boyd C got into trouble because he was one of the known largest manufactures of kit cars or street rods in California. To skirt the Calif system most rodders would take their cars over to Nevada and****le them. Come back to Calif and transfer the registration to get plates. They did an investigation on him because he was well known and wondered how he was handling his to set an example.
That exact thing happened to a guy in Idaho. He had 5 cars with the same numbers. Most of them were customer cars. They tagged him for investigation and impounded all cars. In order to stay out of jail, he turned states evidence and turned in his buddies that he knew was falsifying their****les. One was a city cop.*****s! Also in Idaho it is illegal to stamp numbers in a frame. The state will issue a tag with your numbers for you and junk the old frame.
YES, the California Department of Public Safety or Motor Vehicles will have all the information you need. Why do people keep asking about their states vehicle registration procedures? Go to the state agency and get the rules from the SOURCE, not rumor, not hearsay, not opinion, the RULES. If you get them and can't understand them...go to a****le company and they will take care of it for you with no hassle or aggravation. WHY? Because THEY KNOW THE RULES, that's what they do it every day of business.
It's so complicated that it's simple; Consider this. I have a****le on my car. I misplace it. I apply for a duplicate****le. Some time later I sell the car and transfer the****le to Jimsiarsucker. Then one day just by accident I find my original****le and sell it to YOU on ebay. YOU put the numbers on a Pete and Jakes frame and a******in' new body with all the bells and whistles with a Blown Hemi and I don't know what'all. It's worth 40k. Then YOU goe to register it. The state says Jimsiarsucker has that car already registered. They notify Jimsiarsucker. He bought the car a year before YOU bought the****le from me on ebay. Jimsiarsucker does some research and puts two and two together and comes up with a plan! He parts out the car I sold him, then he goes to the state and says "my car is missing from the garage, don't know when or how". Guess what? YOU will be scratching your****, (wondering what happened) when Jimsiarsucker shows up with the Sheriff to pick up HIS car. Here's the kicker. YOU can't say a thing, because to fight the action would end up with YOU admitting to having committed a crime, "title laundering". Jimssiarsucker will most likely have covered his tracks and without colloberating evidence against him, he will win any subsequent action. YOU haven't covered your tracks, and have most likely already admitted to the Sheriff that you bought the****le on ebay.
even if they did, you have to tear the thing apart on a Model A to find it.[/quote] That is not true in all cases, on my car it is quite visible below the firewall on the drivers side and it was verifyed by the Cal DMV and again in Michigan by the State cops when I moved here. Thats Just my experience.
I would like to sell the original chassis but seems the risk is to great. I guess I could build another 29 Tudor with the old chassis and just put the tag on whichever one I wanted to drive for the day. All the numbers match both vehicles so whos to know.
I believe that a "repair" or "safety modification" is acceptable. I have the same situation on one of my cars and have thouroughly documented the actions so there is no question. Since you own(and possess) the****le and own and (possess)the car and the numbers match, there is no doubt that anybody would ever contest those facts. If it were me I would hang that original frame up in the rafters and document my actions. The 'new team' in Washington DC are going to be using any excuse they can muster to rid us of our old cars, supporting new car sales and crushing the old in the name of 'change'.
Bullshit, the old team did as much or more harm over the last 8 years to our hobby.... Don't try to inject********* politics into this...
Does the 27 model T have the VIN stamped into the frame also if so where? I bought the body and got the frame rails with no intention of using them. But I have no****le documents. I am only asking cause it would save me from pulling them down from the rafters. Thanks
OK heres the scoop. I'm not trying to be underhanded or shady at all. I bought a rough model a coupe. The main reason I bought this one is it was supposed to have a****le. I got it home and looked over the NY transferable registration it says tudor as the model. I question the seller and he says its not a problem. The guy I bought it from was rear ended 20 years ago in this car he got a settlement and built another 31 coupe and this one sat next to the barn. I dont know for sure but I suspect the numbers on my frame will match the paperwork on his coupe. Now I'd just go with the paperwork he gave me but inlight of what I think happened and the fact that NY issued annual transferable registrations I'm worried I'll find that this number is no good either. Now what do I do? finish building the body and buy another complete car with****le? I plan to build my own frame so as long as I have a good number all is well. Mabye the number on my frame is ok i don't know. I'm leary of spending $500 on a****le to find it's junk
"Stars" or no "stars", it's a number on a frame that evidently matches the number on the****le...end of story. I SERIOUSLY doubt that any registering authority will criminally prosecute, because Henry's "Stars" aren't before or after the numbers...
Looks to me like the cowl is placed further back. That bracket that is about 4" or so in front of the cowl is where the original 2 bolts that are through the added-on bracket would have mounted. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.. That is not true in all cases, on my car it is quite visible below the firewall on the drivers side and it was verifyed by the Cal DMV and again in Michigan by the State cops when I moved here. Thats Just my experience. [/QUOTE] .
So I have a thing for my Model A from Alabama that is a bill of sale and a paper from Alabama. When I bought this, I was given a tag to engrave with the number off the state of Alabama's offical paper. I'm supposed to apply this tag to the body, or the frame of my car. Is that all I need for Texas to be happy? I've never done this before, all my 55 other cars had****les. The lady at the Tax office suggested that I come in and request a****le transfer without registration so when I finished my hot rod I wouldn't have to wait for a****le. Anyone out there from Texas done this Alabama reciept thing? Thanks, Mike
That number is not a Ford number...45B?? Nohow. It is probably there and matches the****le because it is an****igned number from some previous "Lost****le" proceeding. Imagine this: 1930...a new Ford is****led. In 1942, its engine fails and is replaced with a junkyard mill carrying another Model A number...it changes hands with its original****le and serial a few times. A streetrodder buys it, plonks it on a repro frame, and plans to retitle it under its original number even though he has sold the frame and also the odd motor and actually has no number at all. Different people buy motor and frame and prepare to****le cars using the two numbers...another person finds the original block, and decides to****le his speedster to that number. Then someone else buys a shoebox of old papers at a garage sale, and finds 20 old registrations filed away from 1930 to 1950 by the original owner and sells them... By unbelievable coincidence, 25 rodders find themselves in line at the East Overshoe DMV office next Saturday to tile their****embled Model A's under the same damn number...
Welll MAFCA says it is, the state of Ca, say it is, and the state of MI says it is. The engine that was with the frame had the same # without the 045B, which denote a coupe. So its good enough for me.
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