Hot Rods Disk brakes for T-bucket spindle mount wheels?

A neighbor is wanting to install disk brakes on a crusty survivor T-bucket with spindle mount wire wheels. It seems by the lack of disk wear that it may never have had calipers. The spindles don’t appear to be 37-48 round back type. Any suggestions for parts sources for this setup will be appreciated. I do see Speedway offers a fancy kit with disk and Wilwood caliper.

 

As you know, it depends on the spindle and the wheel. Speedway used to have a kit and the wheels, but it seems they are both discontinued.
I just did a search and they do have this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266932684406
although I doubt it's going to last a long time so buy extra consumables.
Old school was Airheart, more modern is Wilwood.
They also have the pucks or pads still, so maybe the warning is not warranted.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Airheart-Brake-175H-Hard-Lining-Replacement,46211.html
I got a set of wheels with mine, but I have only cleaned them up. I expect that they will not fit my chevy spindles and I'd have to strip off the front brakes to try. I was warned that getting all the separate parts to build the spindle mount brakes would be a bit of a task.
Yours looks like a Total Performance or Speedway, with the spindles they offered. Those usually had a tube axle, not the I beam you show.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Total-Performance-T-Bucket-Retro-Fit-Front-Axle-Kit,44772.html



This turned out to be a rabbit hole for me. I'm going to check numbers and give them a call to see if this will work on my T and my wheels. I have a feeling that the bearings and seals may not match, but I can hope.


EDIT: Update, just called with the question and the seal number. I have not pulled it apart to get bearing numbers yet, but seal is National # 50185. Bolt pattern for the 4 bolts holding rotor to wheel looks like about 3.350 inch. This is for the Hallcraft 16 inch wheel shown.
The tech staff isn't in for another 35 minutes.

BTW, these are the guys to restore your wheels, but they are not cheap.
https://www.buchananspokes.com/

 

Did someone modify some OEM spindles, for appearance ?
Looks like it.
Is that really a brake rotor ? Or just a round piece of thin steel ?

I would say: Take it apart, and see what is going on.
Might be able to figure out what the spindles used to be,
from the bearing and king pin dimensions.

The steering arm on top of the spindle, looks like it has been modified.
Take a look at that, make sure it is safe.

Hard to tell from the pic, is there a bearing below the king pin boss on the axle ?
Was this ever on the road ?

 

Thanks, good comments, will pass along. I’m glad it’s not my project! Remarkably it seems to have been driven enough to wear out the tires. The best solution would be to replace the whole front end so all is known and safe.

 

AFAIK no one made a thick rotor for that style wheel, and all the kits I remember used a pretty small caliper so the thin steel rotor is typical. The spindle has a radius visible (arrow) so it is from a ‘37-‘41 Ford front end that someone added a steering arm to. Could what is above the spindle be the makings of a caliper bracket?



The tire contact patch is small with that tire, large calipers would not be a good idea on that car.

 

Here’s a photo from an old Total Performance catalog showing the type of caliper used on T buckets. Total was bought out by Speedway Motors and there is no spindle mount wheel/disc brake assembly offered by Speedway any longer.

 

Tires are going to be another rabbit hole! These are Shinko SR740 100/80-16 M/C 50H Max load 419 pounds (front of car is 1000 pounds ) Made in Korea. date 1716 so 8 years old.
Nobody is going to suggest a MC tire for the front of a car, different forces and loads. But I'll go down that path only if the brakes can be sorted.

@fordor , good catch on the spindle! The calipers in the kit and the rotor are small to limit the braking so the tire isn't locked up. I thought and was told the old TP kit from speedway was discontinued. Same with the wire wheels. However, they are offering a kit that is for the 18 inch Raider spindle mount wheels and that's what I posted. Here's the video from the listing. I'm going to see if this can be used for the wire wheels. Even if the bolt pattern needs to be redrilled, if the caliper mount works, and the spacers can be worked to fit, it should work. Question is, bolt on, minor machine work or major work?

 

I built a Total Performance T bucket long ago. It had wire wheels,and go cart brakes. I was sorry I went with that set up.Tires scrubbed badly going around corners. If I was building one now it would have brakes off a real car,and bolt on car rims.The car would have been so much more fun to drive if I hadnt built it for looks.

 

Since OP appears to have Ford spindles, here's the bearing kit
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Bearing-and-Seal-Kit-for-Ford-Radir-Spindle-Mount-Wheels,104681.html
and the brake kit
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Disc-Brake-Kit-for-Ford-Spindle-Mount-Radir-Wheels,278554.html
wheels are mentioned as Radir 706-1200 (plain) and 706-1202 (polished) spindle mount wheels, both of which are not available at Speedway. This may be going away shortly if they don't have the wheels.

Raidir still shows them and mentions a 16" coming soon.
http://www.radirwheels.com/wheels.htm
They are not cheap, but I'd guess it's a matter of low demand/volume.

 

@irishsteve , yeah, I gotta agree that it's about the look. I haven't tried these on mine, and have reservations just looking at the deal. Add to that the lack of tires, using a wrong application to make it work, loads involved, etc.
I will say that having a big heavy wheel and tire on a light car where the unsprung weight is a larger percentage of the total weight isn't pleasant either. Trying to find a wheel and tire combo that is properly sized is going to involve compromise.
I will also say that some guys push the boundaries. @BigJoeArt has a T that has skinny fronts and no brakes! He just completed a big trip and although lots of stuff tried knocking him out, the front wheels weren't one of them.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/just-a-big-model-t.1276032/
EDIT: He did have a flat, but got home with a borrowed wheel/tire for a bit, then his own matching skinny.

 

Sat on hold for over an hour, ended up selecting call back.
Will update when I get more info.
EDIT: well, got a callback pretty quickly. However, The guy was unwilling to help. We discussed the brake kit, the wheels, which he responded that his notes indicated they do not recommend for automobiles which I agreed is probably why they discontinued them, then I provided the seal # and specs, along with the wheel dimensions to see if the kit would work. I also mentioned they don't have the Raidir wheels for the kit. He took all the info, then asked if I had bought before and had an account. I said no. He said he needed to set up an account to pass along to a more knowledgeable experienced person. I said I'd rather not, that they had my phone number already. He said that they could not help without an account. I said I was not comfortable with that and he said they couldn't help then.
I asked that my phone # be removed from their system. That was that.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Info/PrivacyPolicy
Once again, asymmetric information leverage. They want all your personal info just to confirm stuff they could provide in the product description and information. His voice sure sounded like it was being modified, too, like those interviews on TV where the person is in shadow. The whole range of voice dropped lower. Thanks, Speedway.

 

Nice to know.
Guessing they push employees to collect info.
Who owns this outfit now ?

 

This may not be your cup of tea, but this is the Total Performance set up and it will stop you on a dime with no problems.

 

The cynic in me thinks the hold queue is just a purgatory until you agree to the call back, allowing them to harvest your number. However, Hanlon's Razor says I'm being paranoid.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
I had a poor feeling about them before, but have recently been looking at a bunch of things on the site due to decent searches, good pricing and overall having what others didn't.
I was planning on getting a fuel cell, probably some wheels and maybe this brake kit. If they had some other things in stock, I may have just bought them at the same time.
This call tossed all that away. I get that corporate wants data, it's the information age. I also know it was in no small part the downfall of Radio Shack, when they hounded you for info just to collect cash at the register for some batteries. It seems most businesses are going this route, which I push back on as much as possible. I drive to the far end of town because the parts store at this end refused to take my money for a part unless they had all my info for something that was going to be delivered that afternoon.
I will instead go to their competitors or do without. Insert old man shaking his fist at the sky. I should have demanded they send me the 10 bucks for the info that is the pop up every time you visit the site!
@Cree I'm sorry your question about a neighbor's issue devolved into a diatribe about modern customer support.
@Sky Six , you've mentioned enjoying your bucket and that you had no problems with the skinnies. Do you have any suggestions as to brakes, wheels and tires that are currently available to help others?

 

I'll send you a PM in a bit.

 

Don't know if it's been mentioned , the TP spindles were exclusive to TP , they were a cross between early ford Econoline & '49-'54 Chevy spindles . I've been told bearings & seals are difficult to source , I have seen " puck" style calipers (motorcycle ) meant for other applications adapted to spindle mount wire wheels . Some of the large road bikes have comparable front end loads to open wheel Roadsters .

 

Did Hanlon consider the possibility of both, Malice and Stupidity, combined ?

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

 

Well, I'll throw my .02 worth in....

If you step up to a 130/80-16 tire you can get a 650+ lbs load rating. Beware, the load rating can change between manufacturers and tire types, so be sure to check it. The downside is bike tires don't wear for shit, expect to replace them every 8K miles more or less. Coker sells an even taller 5.00-16 'vintage' bike tire, but you'll have to check with them on the rating, it's not on their site. Personally, I'd avoid that one.

As to brakes, I'd look at bikes again. Given the small contact patch you'll have, you don't want a lot of brake, the motorcycle calipers are relatively cheap and available in both floating and non-floating configurations. I would think a larger single piston or 'regular' dual piston design would be adequate if off a heavyweight touring bike. Do check required rotor thickness, too thick won't fit and too thin will over-extend the pistons. These will get you away from 'proprietary' parts and make servicing easier/cheaper. Some fab work for mounting will of course be needed.

 

I was talking with a guy that was driving a wild Bantam sedan that had a dragster style front end sticking out about 3 feet in front of the grille. It had wire wheels and motorcycle front tires. Not much weight on them. The crowns were worn smooth. He said the car ate front tires at a crazy rate, despite messing with pressures and alignment. There's just not much contact patch area.

 

I'd guess that the entire construction and heat holding design for a bike is completely different, even a tourer that's doing long straight distances with fairly heavy weight.
Considering the design trend is going to larger inner diameter, shorter profile, wider tires, having something on the market for 'the look' is not going to be any easier in the future!

 

Looks like you could get a small Wilwood caliper and either make a bracket that bolts to the mount that is already welded to the Ford spindle or cut that mount off and build a new one to suit. Can't tell much from the picture; but you mentioned the disc showed no signs of wear so it may be good to work with.

Don't be afraid to make something custom in these days of people expecting there to be a "bolt-on" kit made for any and everything.

 

Lot of Tbuckets out there haven't seen 8000 miles in 20 years , lots of different reasons . Om average , I'd guess an average of 4 years to drive 8000 miles .

 

Research results.

2008
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hallcraft-wire-wheels-still-made.286228/
Fred's first T which had hallcrafts
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/my-t-bucket.240337/
2009 history and weight
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/what-did-they-use-for-wire-dragster-wheels.46515/
2011 some history
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/dragster-wire-wheel-questions.595720/
2012 issues especially on heavier car
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hallcraft-wheels-on-a-model-a.732405/
2013, mentions buchanan's
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/help-identify-front-wheels-on-my-new-t.799129/
https://www.buchananspokes.com/
and here
https://tbucketeer.com/threads/hallcraft-front-wheels.10516/
2017
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...-mount-spoke-wheels-on-early-diggers.1050666/
2018
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Garage-Sale-Hallcraft-15-Inch-Wire-Spoked-Wheel,92858.html
This might be the different wheel Dayton mentioned here
https://tbucketeer.com/threads/wire-wheels.10443/
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Wire-Wheels-Kit-for-Front-Ford-Spindles-16-x-3-5,41750.html
This includes the tip
We reccommend Michelin Commander 130/90H-16 blackwall tire. This tire has a H speed rating and is 25.8" tall on this rim. It has a load rating of 803 lbs. @ 41 psi., while most other tires are rated at only 675 lbs.
2019 with seals and cup #, ref to 2017 thread
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/help-needed-with-hallcraft-wire-wheels.1139957/
seals with pics
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hallcraft-wheel-felt-seals.1152218/
more old info and ads
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/t-bucket-laced-front-wheels.1164535/
2024 WIIW
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hallcraft-spindle-mount-wheels.1325065/

caps
https://tbucketeer.com/threads/hallcraft-hubcaps.13716/

 

Wow, that oughta cover it! I’ll pass it all on to this guy and wish him luck and an enjoyable time. Thanks everyone for the help.

 

I have absolutely no idea why this is coming to mind but in some tiny corner of the dusty and admittedly rather small amount grey matter rattling around my noggin, I am connecting Karmann Ghia calipers and T-bucket front brakes.

 

If he's not willing to read all of that, the Too Long; Didn't Read (TL;DR) is they are too lightweight for the front of a car unless you take great care of them, equip them with a limited selection of adequate tires, drive with the limitations in mind and can afford and track down the needed parts and service, which are not readily available. I hope he considers it either a trailer queen as-is or upgrades to street-able rolling and stopping stock. There will be those that say they have no issues, drive with abandon, have a person that can true and balance, and have plenty of spares. I say more power to them, but not all of us are in that situation.

 

You should check the ackerman on the front mount steering arms. Often they are intended to go behind the axle and don't have proper ackerman when used in front. A line through the kingpin and tie rod end should intersect in the middle of the read axle. You can do this with string to get close enough.

 

Years ago I wanted the Radir spindle mount wheels and tires for the look, I love that look. Never did do it. I do not think they would hold up on the shit Pa. roads and my high HP coupe , not to mention that I play on the street. I was also told that under hard braking the small brake pucks sometimes get spit out. I believe If memory serves, Dave Littleman mentioned that happened to him. I do love the look though.

 

Those and VW calipers. There is several styles. I have set up with Ghia calipers aluminum hubs and Rotors that I can not source a replacement for.

 

The front end weight of a Ghia is about equal to the front end weight of a Tbucket ...+ - 1000 lbs .You'd think that would work pretty well . The front ends of the bigger road bikes are around 500 lbs , so two calipers would give you about , again , 1000 lbs ,same with Big Bike tires & wheels ...