Lots of talk from a newbie, I think we all agree the pictures look awful and unsafe. And spacers and stuff prevent tightening, there´s no welding at all and perhaps no center bolt going thru the plate. That pretty much answers to the original title...
The pic Hillbilly posted is how I'd do it. (Altough I'd make a better looking "holder") No need to weld anything to the axle itself. Welding shit to axles makes me nervous. Just make a carriage for the axle to sit IN with a hole for the spring centering pin. And DON'T weld anything to the spring either. You could use a piece of channel iron and make it look presentable for the axle 'perch'.
Kevin, I'm with you on this one... I wouldn't say he got any real dickhead comments at all. Keep in mind, Chaz, that if you really need to ask the question, "is this going to end in death by firey crash?", then you probably answered your own question before you got started posting. In my limited experience with this stuff, if something you've fabricated doesn't look safe - it generally isn't. You'll notice a distinct difference in fabrication on some of the more unorthodox setups done by some of the more brilliant members of this board. When you look at their work, it doesn't beg the question - "is this safe?". It just looks right. I've asked some really stupid questions on here when I was getting started, and I continue to, and occasionally I'll get a smartass response, but I'll take the one or two smartass responses mixed with the huge volume of thoughtful, well-thought-out advice and maybe a little "what are you thinking?" any day of the week over some clowns who don't give a rat's ass about your safety. That's what makes this place so great! Just my $.02...
hmmm. all I did different was use a plate at he bottom instead of u bolts... put THOUSANDS of miles on my 60. sure am glad I didn't ask for approval from any of you guys!!!!
I think the spacers look unsafe because they have too big of a hole down the center...so they look goofy. Get some good steel with the right size hole for the U-bolts and it will look more stable (of course once its all tightened down it would probably be just the same) You did say you used the bolts under the axle pad to tighten the spacers.down to the plate then tighten the top bolts...Makes good sense to me,but it leaves room for slop if you don't have the spacers just right....If it were me I would weld the bottom plate to the axle like porknbeaner said...with the hole for the center pin,and I would use spacers from the plate to the spring pad so the ears can't break off under extreme conditions. I am a little curious about your scrub line...seems like the U-bolts under all that stack might be hangin pretty low. Also, do you have pan clearance once the axle is moved up so much?
Anytime I see someone putting a suspension together with a sledge hammer in the back ground I get worried.
It was easy to find under "rat rod talk" title... http://clubhotrod.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=70 No matter who you gonna believe... I´m done with this case. One more photo of my 38-Chevy. I tried to make same type of solution that you did but ended up just sweep the frame rails and replace the springs with lower ones. It just didn´t work with space, fastening, tires, steering arms, ackerman etc...
That is a simple spring over flip. The axle is right side up, but the spring has been moved from the top of the axle to the bottom. The setup you have there is unsafe. What you need to do to make is safe is weld that plate to the axle. I would also put a few gussets on it. Then with another plate under the spring to sandwich the spring between the axle and bottom plate. Run the u-bolt parallel to the spring with the nuts on the bottom. Make sure you flip the sprint bolt so it locates the axle plate on the bottom of the axle. The probblem is that the narrow front-back footprint of the axle is going to try to make it roll on the spring under braking forces. How you have it setup now will break the springs under where the u-bolt is clamped to it since all the rotating forces on the axle are concentrated on those two spots. It might not break immediately but it will eventually. Worst case scenario is you front axle rolls under as the springs break under heavy braking. Best case scenario is you will have squirrelly handling under braking as the axle trys to roll on the plate with only those u-bolts trying to keep it from rotating. The wider pad welded to the axle will make a huge difference since the axle now has a much larger footprint fore/aft and the gussets will keep it the pad from flexing. The larger pad will distribute the forces much better on the spring and will help keep the spring from flexing under the axle. The lower plate will effectively sandwich the spring back solid, making zero flex at the spring seat. This will keep the caster from changing much under braking. The u-bolts parallel to the springs are a safety measure. If one fails you still have the other going over the axle keeping it in place. How it is now, if one fails, nothing is going to stop the axle from rotating and just breaking the other. I would use 1/2" diameter or larger u-bolts. Remember that the front end sees as much as 300-400% of the forces the forces the rear end does under braking and turning.
The right tool for the right job! I gotta pull it apart and put a better locator pin in the spring pack, and then reassemble and weld the plate to the axle and give it a shot. All other consideration aside, should I just cut spacers the right length, or should I use the "jam" nuts between the axle and spacer which I felt held the plate to the springs? Thanks, CHAZ
I don't think you even need the spacers on the u-bolts. Keep in mind that your frame may need a C-notch for axle clearance.
No spacers at all, gusset the plate to the axle, put a plate under the spring to clamp it, change the orientation of the u-bolts and have them go through the bottom plate with the nuts on the bottom. The hoop of the u-bolt should always go over the axle.
I'd say lose the spacers and weld the plate... But then again you heard that already... I'd be worried about there being enough space above the axle one installed though...
I would get "U" bolts that loop around the axle and have a plate under the spring. Probably would have to be custom bent... For all those "Naysayers" above...think about this. Why has it been OK for years to have an underslung rear axle.?....most leaf spring cars are....Yet its a big sin to have an underslung front axle. Granted, this one is wrong, but it can be done properly.
this isn't an underslung design, its an axle over spring instead of the factory axle under spring. the load has been moved from the spring to the ubolt, so minimizing torsional force on the bolt, as suggested by gussets, relieves that factor. the frame is intended to be above everything else, it's just not so in the picture. if it were underslung, the geometry of the suspension remains the same, the axle is under the spring, and as long as the pin is swapped top to bottom on the spring it would be fine. the confusion has come from the angle of the pictures. the intention is not to show an upside down axle, it was a miscommunication. now that we are past that, a SOLUTION can be had. I agree the u-bolt configuration needs addressed.
On my 56 f100, I removed 1 leaf and reversed the eyes. I know running spring under has been done before, but mine would not have fit. There would have been no up travel at all. Your springs must have more arch than mine. As far as the mount, I would want as least as much surface area on the plate as the top of the axle has. The spacers would be welded to the bottom plate. The center pin would index into the plate. I might even use grade8 bolts. I am not fond of the ubolt binding in the corners as it goes through the holes in the axle. You can build the right castor into the bottom plate. You have the right idea, just needs a little more refining. Spring under should have less spring wrap, but it depends on where the centerline of the axle is in relation to stock. I have seen far worse, but I would still do any number of the suggested fixes mentioned by the others. Any of them done well would be fine, done poorly it would be no better than it is. To avoid all the confusion it may work better to explain what you are doing. "This is my attempt at moving my axle to the top of the spring on my hotrod f1/f100 truck" Then again some people would still not know what they were looking at. I know I type before I think, so maybe we all due from time to time.
Hillbilly has got it right. His drawing is the safe and better way to get what you want. Most of the components to do it right are already there.
One of the worst things an aspiring hot rodder can do is blindly copy some one else's 'design' without thinking about how safe it might be (or not be) engineered. I've seen lots of things that had thousands of miles on them, and they still were not safe IMHO. Gary Heidt assured me that he had tested his M-II suspension "thoroughly". I asked him if he had tested it to destruction, so that he knew what was the weak link. "No" was the answer. Problem was, *I* found the weak link - and part of it was the welding done at his shop. The other part was the design. Follow the tips given by others about this axle - they were very much on target. Cosmo
I was vague, and I am sorry some people thought I was trying an underslung. I had the axle laying on top of the frame where I worked on it and I just snapped a few pics. I am going to pull it apart, put a short leaf under the ubolt mounting plate on the bottom to spread the force of that out, make sure that the spring pack bolt head indexes into my spacer plate a little better, cut spacers that will fill the gap without the "jam" nuts, weld the plate to the axle, put it back together and give it a whirl. I know it shouldn't bother me but it does when the first thing someone suggests is completely drop what you are doing now and do it another way. Thanks for all the info, and the kick in the pants I needed. CHAZ
The reason we jump on folks who do something we dont like or dont approve of, is because we are concerned about safety and good engineering practices. OK, we might get a bit harsh at times, but we're not known for being backwards in coming forward. Other forums might be more polite, but we're the ones who care if you kill yourself. Why? Because politicians at all levels are doing their darnedest to legislate the old car biz out of existence, and anytime there's a crash involving a hot rod or any performance vehicle it's more ammunition for their cause. Dont take it personal, use the wisdom of this place to improve your ride.
i have run a similar setup on my 45 gmc for the last 40,000 miles..but i didnt weld anything to my axle..i drilled the bottom of my axle to except my center bolt which i pulled out of my spring and reversed, i made my spacers out on 1" round stock which i bored out to fit snug on the u-bolts and welded them to a 1" plate that rides ontop of my spring..on the bottom of my spring i made a 1/2" plate the width of the spring and ball milled saddles for the u-blot to ride in..with this setup i was able to set my caster angle by placeing wedges between my spring and axle..all in all its worked fine for me..if anyone thinks its unsafe ..fire away
don't lump me into the same catagory as Heits. I don't care if you did it on purpose or not. DON'T do it again.
There's nothing wrong with the idea, just need to make sure it is stout enough. I moved the Chevy axle I'm using above the spring. I cut off the old mounting pad and welded another plate on the bottom side of the axle for a perch. It is drilled and there is a locating bolt/pin in the axle. I made my lower bracket for the ubolts so that I wouldn't have problems with the scrub line. It's been on the road for about four and a half years and is doing fine. This is a pretty old picture but nothing is changed.
I was going to ask but see that the mounting pad is not on the spring and , hmm . I think I would pass on that , that being said.There must be a safe configuration for that sort of setup... dontcha think ?Something that would be of some help? Fellas?
Man this brings back memories! Did the same thing to a 60 F-100 in 1982. Ran it about a year but never got over the "feel" of it. The good lord watches over some of us when we do really stupid stuff. One more thing if you go with this, check your drag link for level. Bump steer is a scary-ass ride!! That's from experience. Good luck buddy!
The one thing I would add for suggestions that I didn't see is a locating pin in the bottom piece for your spring pack. Just one more element of safety to keep things in place in the event of a drastic manuever. I've got a '61 with a similar axle. Just got it back from Dave Mann (Roadsters.com here on the Hamb) yesterday and decided to go with the drop axle/spring eye reversal. Here's a pic of the axle they did for me.
Explain how the roll center is any different than a rear end on top of the springs. Also alot of truck rear ends and cars from 4 u bolts. Droping the truck axles, like more drops ,is the loss of steering radius as the arms get moved down and bind on the ball. ,amongst other things. Ive done enough of these coversions to know, and the spring over is still the best as it leaves stock geometry in the steering.
WELL, FIRST OFF, WHEN YOU APPLY THE BRAKES... ALL THE WIEGHT OF THE CAR MOVES FORWARD.... TO THE FRONT AXLE.. WHEN YOU RAISE THE ATTACHING POINT OFF YER FRONT AXLE TO THE TOP ... APPROX 4~6 inches YOUR NEW ROLL CENTER IS APPROX BETWEEN THE AXLE AND THE SPRING SO THE WIEGHT OF THE CAR IS NOW EXAGERATED AND IS PULLING ON THE EXTENDED U~BOLTS ITS KIND THE SAME THING AS USEING A 4" BREAKER BAR TO LOOSEN A TIGHT BOLT AS OPPOSED TO TO USEING A 10" BREAKER BAR. WHY DO YOU THINK THE AXLE WAS AT THE BOTTOM IN THE FIRST PLACE ??? THE REAR ISNT SUCH A CONCERN AS THERE ISNT A WIEGHT TRANFER ISSUE IN THE REAR ... LIKE THE FRONT. BUT HEY, IM JUST A SMART ASS PUNK THAT HAS LOWERED ABOUT EVERY DAMN CAR IVE OWNED SINCE I WS 16 .. NOW IM 40 AND HAVE HAD MAAAAAAANY CARS. MAYBE I SHOULD JUST LEAVE IT ALONE AND LET YA ALL BUILD SHIT THE WAY YOU WANT ..... AND READ ABOUT IT IN THE PAPER WHEN SHIT HITS THE FAN
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